MescaBug Posted July 28, 2008 Report Share Posted July 28, 2008 (edited) Hi, What would be the benefits of using a string retaining bar instead of back ferrules? Godin Guitars uses it. I'm not talking about cosmetics or usage, that's something else. I did a search, but didn't find anything very useful. I'm french, I don't even know how to call that in english! I would use it with a Hipshot Hardtail string-thru. It's like having a 2nd bridge; the plate is bolted directly on the body, and each individual string can benefit from a larger contact surface with the body. Am I completely off-track? Any thoughts? I'm sure somebody here used it. If only I knew the name of that thing... Thanks, David Edited July 28, 2008 by MescaBug Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mammoth guitars Posted July 28, 2008 Report Share Posted July 28, 2008 Sonicly no benefit, production benefits easier to install, less chance of damaging the finish, cheaper flat stamped metal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WezV Posted July 28, 2008 Report Share Posted July 28, 2008 no need to worry about slightly misaligned ferrules which always show up really badly... it also provides a nice grounding point if you are using something like graphtech for the bridge saddles Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MescaBug Posted July 28, 2008 Author Report Share Posted July 28, 2008 (edited) Sonicly no benefit, production benefits easier to install, less chance of damaging the finish, cheaper flat stamped metal. Don't want to be rude but I don't agree with that at all. If I was Godin, making guitars for more than 20 years, and producing more than a thousand a year, and having top of line production machines, I wouldn't care about misalign ferrules.. Most guitars company uses ferrules on entry level and top of the line models. I don't think cost and production rate is a factor here. Most 150$ string-thru production guitars have their ferrules perfectly aligned. Machines rarely screw up. I can tell from experience that a well-machined piece of brass cost more than cheap Asian made ferrules. Sonicly no benefit... Do you have any specific experience to back it up? What material was used in your experiment (brass, steel), what type of wood, what type of bridge. I'm just curious why it didn't had any effect on tone whatsoever. I'm no trying to debate what is the best, I want to hear from people who actually tried it. I'm not afraid of trying it either, but having some opinions first is sometimes better. no need to worry about slightly misaligned ferrules which always show up really badly... Well, that's not the way I'm thinking... I don't think my customers would like to hear that. I care about everything I do, and that includes perfectly aligned ferrules, which can look good when done properly. Avoiding a delicate task by going the easy way is not an option for me. Edited July 28, 2008 by MescaBug Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mammoth guitars Posted July 28, 2008 Report Share Posted July 28, 2008 Sonicly no benefit... Do you have any specific experience to back it up? What material was used in your experiment (brass, steel), what type of wood, what type of bridge. I'm just curious why it didn't had any effect on tone whatsoever. Yes. Used on top and back. The string terminates between the nut and bridge saddle and after that the stop points should not have any vibration or you will have tone loss. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmrentis Posted July 28, 2008 Report Share Posted July 28, 2008 What information are looking for specifically, cause both posters so far listed benefits of the string retainer over back ferrules as per your request and you seemed to disagree or disreguard the information offered. I just don't understand what exactly it is you are looking for? What they listed are benefits of using the retainer bar over individual ferrules, has the initial question been misunderstood? As per the sound difference, I have a feeling that whole thing will turn into a useless debate, stuff like that is generally objective meaning if there were a difference in sound it may sound better to you and worse to someone else, so its best just to experiment yourself to see what you prefer and even then that is IF you can hear the difference. J Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MescaBug Posted July 28, 2008 Author Report Share Posted July 28, 2008 (edited) What information are looking for specifically, cause both posters so far listed benefits of the string retainer over back ferrules as per your request and you seemed to disagree or disreguard the information offered. If you read my post carefully, you'll notice that it was clear that I was referring to 'tone' benefits. Both posters replied using a string retainer is cost effective, easier to install and can be a good grounding point, which are all good points. I totally agree with that. But do you see anything 'tone' related? Cause I can't. So yes I disregarded these information, not because they are not interesting but because they don't answer what I was looking for. Yes. Used on top and back. The string terminates between the nut and bridge saddle and after that the stop points should not have any vibration or you will have tone loss. Thanks. That explains why it shouldn't have any, or none, effect on tone. Good point. Edited July 28, 2008 by MescaBug Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WezV Posted July 28, 2008 Report Share Posted July 28, 2008 no need to worry about slightly misaligned ferrules which always show up really badly... Well, that's not the way I'm thinking... I don't think my customers would like to hear that. I care about everything I do, and that includes perfectly aligned ferrules, which can look good when done properly. Avoiding a delicate task by going the easy way is not an option for me. you asked what the benefits might be... the fact its easier to get it looking tidy is a definate benefit of that method whether you choose to do it or not!! i am not saying ferrules never look tidy and i am not saying the plate is better! .... i am saying that the slightest amount of misalignment on ferrules can make them look absolutely awfull. I also care about everything i do.. but i will confess i have added wood plates to the ferrules area when it has gone slightly out of line and i find it to be an aesthetically pleasing fix to an annoying problem. My customers would be displeased to hear i had scrapped and restarted a guitar because of a .5mm misalignment of a string ferrule. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MescaBug Posted July 28, 2008 Author Report Share Posted July 28, 2008 (edited) i am saying that the slightest amount of misalignment on ferrules can make them look absolutely awfull Oh sorry, I misunderstood what you meant. Edited July 28, 2008 by MescaBug Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WezV Posted July 28, 2008 Report Share Posted July 28, 2008 thats alright... sorry if i came across a bit grouchy today but its warmer than i like at the moment and that generally turns me into an old man Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joshvegas Posted July 28, 2008 Report Share Posted July 28, 2008 feeling that wez! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avengers63 Posted July 28, 2008 Report Share Posted July 28, 2008 thats alright... sorry if i came across a bit grouchy today but its warmer than i like at the moment and that generally turns me into an old man The next dude who tells me "It's not the heat, it's the humidity" gets punched in the nads. I don't care what it is, it's hot! Sweating when you're NOT ACTIVE AT ALL is just wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim37 Posted July 28, 2008 Report Share Posted July 28, 2008 thats alright... sorry if i came across a bit grouchy today but its warmer than i like at the moment and that generally turns me into an old man The next dude who tells me "It's not the heat, it's the humidity" gets punched in the nads. I don't care what it is, it's hot! Sweating when you're NOT ACTIVE AT ALL is just wrong. those lovely dog days have made it its been over 100 degrees (sorry don't know the conversion) the last few days and its not even august yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sami Ghouri Posted July 29, 2008 Report Share Posted July 29, 2008 try 120 with humidity level of 90% =D now isn't that perfect for painting guitars??? i lol at us for having to spray paint in AC'ed areas! i'm probably causing cancer to the ppl here.... doing guitar work in a 25 floor building with central conditioning..... baek to topic! =D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim37 Posted July 30, 2008 Report Share Posted July 30, 2008 ok you win your 0 and 2 are in a different order than here i think i would wait for cooler weather. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GGW Posted July 30, 2008 Report Share Posted July 30, 2008 I've thought of using something like this for grounding, as mentioned. Is a plate like this available anywhere? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToddW Posted January 26, 2009 Report Share Posted January 26, 2009 I've thought of using something like this for grounding, as mentioned. Is a plate like this available anywhere? I'm going to revive this, because I can't find one of those plates online. Anybody know where they're sold. I'm thinking about using graphite saddles. Thanks, Todd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madawgony Posted January 26, 2009 Report Share Posted January 26, 2009 I've thought of using something like this for grounding, as mentioned. Is a plate like this available anywhere? Here is a supplier. I have seen several builder insist that these make a noticeable, tonal difference. I have not tested them so I can not say. Taipan Tone Engineering Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j. pierce Posted January 28, 2009 Report Share Posted January 28, 2009 If you can work wood, you can work brass or aluminum with relative ease. You should be able to get a suitable sized piece of either material at hobby or hardware stores, or scrap yards for pocket change. A drill press and a bit of filing and you're ready to go. If you want to go with a thinner plate-style version like Godin uses, it would be even easier. Brass has the advantage that you can solder a ground wire to it easily. I've also had better luck getting lacquer to stick to it, which may be a consideration. I'm wary of the mojo-speak on the linked page. There may well be a change in tone, but when the language comes across like that and they're selling you a piece of metal like that for 40 bucks, my radar goes off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madawgony Posted January 28, 2009 Report Share Posted January 28, 2009 I'm wary of the mojo-speak on the linked page. There may well be a change in tone, but when the language comes across like that and they're selling you a piece of metal like that for 40 bucks, my radar goes off. I am with you on that. Most of that language is subjective. But I have seen posts from other builders/players that do think they make a difference in tone. Does a top loading bridge generate different tonal characteristics as compared to string-through configuration? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fookgub Posted January 28, 2009 Report Share Posted January 28, 2009 (edited) I'm wary of the mojo-speak on the linked page. There may well be a change in tone, but when the language comes across like that and they're selling you a piece of metal like that for 40 bucks, my radar goes off. I agree 100% about the "mojo-speak." I can't stand that stuff. I have, however, heard that the Tiapan parts are nice. They sure look good in the pictures. Dubious total benefits aside, if you consider the quality of the finished pieces, and the fact that they're machined on a small production basis by a guy that's trying to make a living doing this, I don't think $40 is a bad deal. Anyway, I've used retainer blocks on a couple of guitars, and I prefer them to ferrules. Mostly for the reasons Wes stated -- they're just easier to deal with. I also prefer the look. It's a bit more unique than ferrules. Honestly, I don't think I'll ever use ferrules on any of my from scratch builds again. (Actually, I prefer top-loading bridges anyway, but I haven't found one I like that doesn't break the bank.) Here are a couple I've done. The first is 1/8" spring steel, the second is full 1" thick bass. http://users.ece.utexas.edu/~wrobert/vax-testfit5.jpg http://users.ece.utexas.edu/~wrobert/rg_hw.jpg http://users.ece.utexas.edu/~wrobert/rg-done11.jpg Edited January 28, 2009 by fookgub Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck_Chill-Out Posted January 28, 2009 Report Share Posted January 28, 2009 If making a retainer block out of wood, what type of wood would you recommend? (I can't believe I just typed that. It's almost like "How much wood, can a woochuck chuck...) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToddW Posted January 28, 2009 Report Share Posted January 28, 2009 I agree that the sales pitch on those is voodoo, but it's nice workmanship. Just pricey. Wood won't give me a grounding point, so maybe I'll try aluminum. Is Carbon fiber electrically conductive? Todd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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