guitar2005 Posted December 7, 2010 Report Share Posted December 7, 2010 (edited) I glued up this scarf joint and after glue up, I noticed that the glue line shows. I'm not looking for perfection or anything but would something like this worry any of you: I tried to break the joint by standing on the neck and it held up (140Lbs). I then bandsawed off a portion of the neck on the side and after a couple of times of jumping on it, it broke off, but not along the glue line, like so: The thing is, this is where the neck will be at its thinnest (nut) so I wonder if that will have any adverse effects. Of course, the fretboard will also hold the thing together but... just looking for some of your opinions on this. thanks. Edited December 7, 2010 by guitar2005 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westhemann Posted December 7, 2010 Report Share Posted December 7, 2010 but would something like this worry any of you: No. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guitar2005 Posted December 7, 2010 Author Report Share Posted December 7, 2010 but would something like this worry any of you: No. Cool. Coming from you, that really puts my mind at ease. While we're at it, any suggestions for gluing Ebony over maple? I always use yellow carpenter's glue but I wonder if that's ok for ebony - I haven't worked with the stuff for a while. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westhemann Posted December 7, 2010 Report Share Posted December 7, 2010 You know,I have glued a few ebony boards to maple with titebond and it works fine.Now I use 2 part epoxy for almost everything,but that is more of a preference. For me,epoxy is always at it's full strength.I like it on fretboards because titebond tends to make fretboards curl away from it,making it more difficult to clamp and everything... But that is no reason to not try to get the joints perfect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim37 Posted December 7, 2010 Report Share Posted December 7, 2010 i once read somewhere where a guy said gibson should break all there necks at the factory because once they have been reglued they are less likely to break agian. (i dont know if this is true or not and dont really care since i dont own a gibson) so i think your on to something here. test all your necks to failure and then fix them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guitar2005 Posted December 7, 2010 Author Report Share Posted December 7, 2010 i once read somewhere where a guy said gibson should break all there necks at the factory because once they have been reglued they are less likely to break agian. (i dont know if this is true or not and dont really care since i dont own a gibson) so i think your on to something here. test all your necks to failure and then fix them. The portion that I broke is a cutoff, not the actual neck. In terms of using epoxy, I'm kinda leary of using it. Unless you have quality epoxy, the home depot stuff isn't up to snuff IMO and the stuff they have at Lee Valley is pretty expensive. I'll definitely try it someday, but not right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avengers63 Posted December 7, 2010 Report Share Posted December 7, 2010 would something like this worry any of you no You'll always see where it was glued together with a scarf. A lot of people use it as an excuse to put in some extra decoration. It's the same mentality as the Arts & Crafts movement in woodworking: highlight the joinery instead of trying to hide it. any suggestions for gluing Ebony over maple? Titebond. Ebony isn't oily or resinous like some rosewoods are, so there is no extra prep necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westhemann Posted December 7, 2010 Report Share Posted December 7, 2010 In terms of using epoxy, I'm kinda leary of using it. Unless you have quality epoxy, the home depot stuff isn't up to snuff IMO and the stuff they have at Lee Valley is pretty expensive. I'll definitely try it someday, but not right now. 3400 pounds per square inch isn't good enough? Truth is all of it is strong enough for guitar purposes.I mean,you have to mix it in equal parts,but I have never had it fail.The thing is,I know some guys have a prejudice against epoxy,and they really use the "home depot" stuff as the whipping boy,but I use that loctite stuff in the big bottles,and it's really convenient. I started using it years ago at work on aluminum rails...we put it around the internal sleeve couplings and clamp it stationary for 5 minutes and It's good to go.it bonds much,much better to sanded wood. Like I said,especially good on fretboards and it's best use is the neck joint.Not that there is anything wrong with titebond(I use that still joining two piece bodies and multilam necks),but epoxy really does have it's uses,and it doesn't depend on absolutely perfect surfaces to reach full strength. Doesn't mean I wouldn't switch to other epoxy if I found a good supplier of it though. My rule of thumb is this..If the joining surfaces are perfectly mated,I use titebond...if there is any concern AT ALL about the mating surfaces,I use epoxy...And I am starting to prefer it for fretboards altogether,though I used to be anti-fretboard epoxy...I hate it when a fretboard curls away from me because I missed a clamp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guitar2005 Posted December 7, 2010 Author Report Share Posted December 7, 2010 (edited) would something like this worry any of you no You'll always see where it was glued together with a scarf. A lot of people use it as an excuse to put in some extra decoration. It's the same mentality as the Arts & Crafts movement in woodworking: highlight the joinery instead of trying to hide it. its just that this glue line is thicker than usual. I don't mind seeing the joint, its mostly the strength that I'm worried about and long term stability. In the 1st pic, look at the right hand side, bottom. The glue line is thicker there. I don't know what the max glue line thickness is supposed to be but I don't have to chance it. I might just start over and try to destroy this one.... but its nice birdseye... I want to keep it. Wes - I've has 5min epoxy stay soft on me, even though I had mixed it right. That batch was just bad. Which readily available brand do you suggest? I wound't know where to find loctite epoxy. Also, you have to watch it with the clamping pressure, don't you. Edited December 7, 2010 by guitar2005 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southpa Posted December 7, 2010 Report Share Posted December 7, 2010 (edited) Epoxies are becoming part of big business nowadays. West Systems epoxies are the best I've used so far. Base to hardener is a 5 : 1 ratio and you can use their 404 additive to thicken. The 404 is a fine clay powder which does not affect the epoxies bonding properties. A lot of autobody shops are using epoxies for patches and panels instead of welding. Its simple as hell. Say you wanted to fix a hole, just glue a backing patch in behind and then run a bondo skim coat to flush things up. You won't be able to hide your scarf joint entirely unless you go with solid paint. A little wider glue joint? thats up to how a n a l you are about your work. Its liekly just as strong as its going to be otherwise. Edited December 7, 2010 by Southpa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westhemann Posted December 7, 2010 Report Share Posted December 7, 2010 Mostly,this is what I use. http://www.amazon.com/Henkel-1172794-Locti...9280&sr=8-3 Any glue can go bad,and any joint can fail if you do something wrong.And you always have to watch your clamping pressure.I am not saying it is better for every use,but it works for me on alot of things.I just think people need to lighten up on different glue types...heck..some guys think of titebond as a hack glue.They use hot hide glue or nothing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottR Posted December 7, 2010 Report Share Posted December 7, 2010 I have gotten that at Home Depot and Lowes. I do tend to prefer the 30 minute stuff over the 5 minute though. My gluing philosophy is pretty similar to yours Wes. And according to a link RAD posted in iluvtele's thread, too much clamp pressure on epoxy is not really a problem either. SR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westhemann Posted December 7, 2010 Report Share Posted December 7, 2010 I do prefer the 30 minute stuff,but it is getting hard to find. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave_B Posted December 8, 2010 Report Share Posted December 8, 2010 i once read somewhere where a guy said gibson should break all there necks at the factory because once they have been reglued they are less likely to break agian. That would be Ed Roman. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westhemann Posted December 8, 2010 Report Share Posted December 8, 2010 Yeah he is still just trying to be the Limbaugh of the guitar world...take a kernel of truth and blow it up into an attention grabbing rant... I wish everyone would just stop dropping their guitars... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim37 Posted December 8, 2010 Report Share Posted December 8, 2010 dam i think i found his sight early on when i got in to guitars. thats the problem with my mind i remember certian stuff but then dont have any idea where it came from. West Systems epoxies are the best I've used so far. Base to hardener is a 5 : 1 ratio and you can use their 404 additive to thicken. The 404 is a fine clay powder which does not affect the epoxies bonding properties. A lot of autobody shops are using epoxies for patches and panels instead of welding. a friend of mine that has a body shop uses west system fairly regularly he has stoped using fiberglass resin he just uses ws in its place because its so much stronger and easier to work. panel bonding adhesive i wouldnt say they try to use it instead of welding (welding is much cheaper) but sometimes its just better not to weld for one reason or another. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guitar2005 Posted December 8, 2010 Author Report Share Posted December 8, 2010 Ed Roman's rant on the gibson headstock does have merit. I would never build a neck like that. I much prefer a scarfed headstock, a volute or a combination of both. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avengers63 Posted December 8, 2010 Report Share Posted December 8, 2010 Ed Roman's rant on the gibson headstock does have merit. I would never build a neck like that. I much prefer a scarfed headstock, a volute or a combination of both. Except that Ed Roman is a self-serving spin doctor doing whatever he can to say how great his stuff is compared to everyone else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westhemann Posted December 8, 2010 Report Share Posted December 8, 2010 Ed Roman's rant on the gibson headstock does have merit. Like I said..kernel of truth. By the way none of my Gibsons ever broke anywhere...but I don't drop them either.I install straplocks on everything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3DogNate Posted December 9, 2010 Report Share Posted December 9, 2010 Ed Roman's rant on the gibson headstock does have merit. I would never build a neck like that. I much prefer a scarfed headstock, a volute or a combination of both. Except that Ed Roman is a self-serving spin doctor doing whatever he can to say how great his stuff is compared to everyone else. I've had the opportunity to play a Roman Scorpion and a Roman Quicksilver and they are no bullsh!t extremely finely fitted and finished instruments... I can't fault playability, tone or appearance of the two examples that I've encountered. What ever Ed's doin' he's doing it right... even if he comes across as jerky to some... to others he's like a BFF. I've not met him but the guy with the Scorpion delt directly with him and said he was great to deal with, very direct but just fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pauliemc Posted December 9, 2010 Report Share Posted December 9, 2010 Ed Roman's rant on the gibson headstock does have merit. Like I said..kernel of truth. By the way none of my Gibsons ever broke anywhere...but I don't drop them either.I install straplocks on everything. Had my Les paul custom 16 years. Not a mark on it. Never broke or went funny even once. stays in tune no matter how hard I bend strings, stored in the case or left out of it. Cant agree with Mr Roman on this one, or a lot of his stuff actually. As far as im concerned, if Gibson were as crap as he says they are then they would have gone out of business decades ago. There is a lot of "My cars faster than your car" childishness goin on there I rekon. Put the other guy down to promote your own self proclamed brilliance. Although, having said that, AEolian guitars walk all over every other make of anything, ever built, anywhere, by anyone, trust me I know for a fact. Nothing to do with it being my workshop or anything - I swear to god Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avengers63 Posted December 9, 2010 Report Share Posted December 9, 2010 I won't say anything bad about Ed Roman's quality. Even without having played one, I'm sure they're a fine instrument. I just get tired of his self-aggrandizement and endless hyperbole. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westhemann Posted December 10, 2010 Report Share Posted December 10, 2010 I don't believe that ER builds any of those guitars himself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Our Souls inc. Posted December 10, 2010 Report Share Posted December 10, 2010 I don't believe that ER builds any of those guitars himself. Neither doesn't Leo Fender........... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avengers63 Posted December 10, 2010 Report Share Posted December 10, 2010 I don't believe that ER builds any of those guitars himself. Neither does Leo Fender........... ...or Paul Reed Smith. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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