RestorationAD Posted April 29, 2013 Author Report Share Posted April 29, 2013 What did I re-learn this weekend? Maple is hard. Sanding it by hand is a pain in the Arse. There is a reason I haven't used it much in recent years. It is heavier than some alternatives and it is hard to sand. Also glue lines are harder to hide in maple. The joints must be perfect. Wenge isn't so bad once it is machined. It comes off the jointer almost ready to glue. It sands pretty easy by hand or machine. It glues easy. It is caustic as hell and splinters hurt. Bloodwood is hard. It gums up sanders (machine and hand). It bleeds into maple. It smells good when it is cut. It glues relatively easy. Joints are easy to hide if properly prepared. Bass guitars are big. They require more wood, bigger tools, and more clamps than a guitar. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottR Posted April 29, 2013 Report Share Posted April 29, 2013 There is an alien in your burl........possibly two or three. It is good to note the things you relearn. Little facts and lessons sneak out of our heads sometimes if we don't check on them every now and then. Then we have to recapture them and put them back where they belong. SR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RestorationAD Posted April 29, 2013 Author Report Share Posted April 29, 2013 It is good to note the things you relearn. Little facts and lessons sneak out of our heads sometimes if we don't check on them every now and then. Then we have to recapture them and put them back where they belong. SR Getting older I may have to start writing this stuff down Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pauliemc Posted April 30, 2013 Report Share Posted April 30, 2013 ah yes. maple. recently iv been learning that birds eye can have a real issue with tear out unless your plane blades are like a razor. sometimes I just hate the stuff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RestorationAD Posted April 30, 2013 Author Report Share Posted April 30, 2013 ah yes. maple. recently iv been learning that birds eye can have a real issue with tear out unless your plane blades are like a razor. sometimes I just hate the stuffNotes to self:#1. Replace Jointer blades.#2. Never use jointer on flamed or birdseye maple because you probably have forgotten to do #1. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pauliemc Posted May 1, 2013 Report Share Posted May 1, 2013 additional note to add to the above. never skip over periodic checking of bearings that drum blades spin on inside jointer. Im not sure just how close it missed me by, But I actualy heard it whizz by my ear before it bounced around the workshop walls. whole damned barrel, with both blades just tore itself out of the machine & vanished across the room, frightened the life outa me. Also, you just reminded me. I gotta sharpen my jointer blades Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottR Posted May 1, 2013 Report Share Posted May 1, 2013 Damn Paulie, how many lives have you used up now? SR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eddiewarlock Posted May 1, 2013 Report Share Posted May 1, 2013 i find interesting what you say about maple. I've just bought a plank of maple and alder, but i've never really worked with maple,much less with alder. I am debating whether to make some neck thru guitars and to laminate the necks or not because i can't find the epoxy i normaly use for laminating necks and i have been thinking on using titebond, but if glue lines are a problem with maple... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westhemann Posted May 1, 2013 Report Share Posted May 1, 2013 Glue lines just tend to stand out on lighter woods like maple...especially epoxy lines.Titebond shows up much less on maple because of the color I think. One good way to hide the glue lines is to put a darker piece of wood between your pieces of maple 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RestorationAD Posted May 1, 2013 Author Report Share Posted May 1, 2013 additional note to add to the above. never skip over periodic checking of bearings that drum blades spin on inside jointer. Im not sure just how close it missed me by, But I actualy heard it whizz by my ear before it bounced around the workshop walls. whole damned barrel, with both blades just tore itself out of the machine & vanished across the room, frightened the life outa me. Also, you just reminded me. I gotta sharpen my jointer blades Notes: 1) Do not stand next to Paulie in a thunderstorm 2) Take Paulie with me when I buy my next lottery ticket 3) Thoroughly check jointer before using it next i find interesting what you say about maple. I've just bought a plank of maple and alder, but i've never really worked with maple,much less with alder. I am debating whether to make some neck thru guitars and to laminate the necks or not because i can't find the epoxy i normaly use for laminating necks and i have been thinking on using titebond, but if glue lines are a problem with maple... No glue hijacking in my threads! I have spoken out about clamping pressure, joints, and glues enough everyone knows how I feel. Glue lines just tend to stand out on lighter woods like maple...especially epoxy lines.Titebond shows up much less on maple because of the color I think. One good way to hide the glue lines is to put a darker piece of wood between your pieces of maple No giving away my secrets Wes! The other way to hide glue lines in maple is make a super tight joint and use proper clamp pressure. Also seem to recall some of the older wood workers saying white glue leaves a less visible line in maple. Not sure about that one... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eddiewarlock Posted May 2, 2013 Report Share Posted May 2, 2013 Ok no glue hijacking your threads sorry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RestorationAD Posted May 3, 2013 Author Report Share Posted May 3, 2013 Ok no glue hijacking your threads sorry<in best Ash voice>Okay then... that's it!No Glue Hijacking RAD's threads... </in best Ash voice>Ha ha ha! Read this --> How Strong is Your Glue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westhemann Posted May 3, 2013 Report Share Posted May 3, 2013 I love that article.I was surprised that Titebond was almost as strong on a loose joint as T88...bt not surprised at all that poly glue failed miserably...pays to listen to me sometimes...HA! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RestorationAD Posted May 3, 2013 Author Report Share Posted May 3, 2013 I love that article.I was surprised that Titebond was almost as strong on a loose joint as T88...bt not surprised at all that poly glue failed miserably...pays to listen to me sometimes...HA! I know I bring that article up all the time but I can tell you that from my experiences they are dead on or at least really close. I think you really have to use epoxy like West Systems on cocobolo and bocote. They are the 2 exotics that I have had failures with using titebond. But I will say that I use titebond on most everything else and if the joint is tight the results are great. Since we have new blood following this thread I will post up my favorite articles if you have seen them before don't complain I have to do this every once in a while. I learned all this the hard way in my early years of building guitars and doing wood work. I like these articles because they sum it all up very quickly. There is more too it that can only be learned by experience. http://www.finewoodworking.com/item/27121/how-to-glue-up-joints-different-woods-need-different-clamping-pressure http://www.finewoodworking.com/item/27122/how-to-glue-up-joints-the-right-number-of-clamps http://www.finewoodworking.com/item/27123/how-to-glue-up-joints-positioning-the-clamps http://www.finewoodworking.com/item/27124/how-to-glue-up-joints-tips-on-gluing 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RestorationAD Posted May 3, 2013 Author Report Share Posted May 3, 2013 Couple of quick adds. Clamp time for Titebond 1 The article says 60 minutes ... I say bull. I have seen failures at anything under 6 hours for clamp time on Titebond I. Now this also depends on your climate. Here in NC the humidity is retarded so it is always safer to wait longer. If you live in AZ maybe not so much... The distribution of clamps The article says that the force from the jaw of a clamp is spread out at a 45. I am not so sure about that. I tend to believe it is closer to 25 degrees depending on the hardness of the clamping caul or the wood you are clamping. I say take that one with a grain of salt. The numbers might not be right but the theory is what you need to remember. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RestorationAD Posted May 3, 2013 Author Report Share Posted May 3, 2013 I am debating whether to make some neck thru guitars and to laminate the necks or not because i can't find the epoxy i normaly use for laminating necks and i have been thinking on using titebond, but if glue lines are a problem with maple... Sorry in my joking I didn't give you my advice. Stop building neck through guitars they suck. Ok kidding aside. Yes use Titebond 1 on your laminated necks. In my experience the glue line will be better than epoxy. I never use epoxy for neck laminates because it is time consuming, expensive, and there is always the possibility that epoxy will leave a glue line. In general with maple if you can hold your pieces together with your hand and not see a line then you will not get a nasty glue line with Titebond I. Even clamp dispersal is important with maple and don't worry too much about starving the joint. On the hard woods it is hard to starve a joint with hand clamps. If you see my builds I always seem to use a ton of clamps. They are all usually only hand tight. I use as many as I can to make sure the clamp force is evenly distributed. I try not to crank them down using a pipe or lever on the handles as that is when you get yourself in trouble. Lastly Wes is dead on about putting a dark wood in between 2 pieces of maple. That will really help hide the glue line visually. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westhemann Posted May 3, 2013 Report Share Posted May 3, 2013 I have seen very similar articles to that first one you posted(glue),even using the same joint and breaking technique,but the ones I saw did not do loose fits to test,which I feel is very important and was glad to read about.Maybe I have seen you post it before and just assumed it was one of the others. I always knew that slow set epoxy was strong on loose joints,but seeing the actual numbers compared to Titebond really did surprise me.Close enough in most cases to not even matter. I wish more people were aware of Gorilla Glue's inadequacy.I debate with people in real life constantly about it.I always hear "It's the strongest glue on Earth" from them.They repeat the slogan without really making the connection that it is just a sales pitch,and that ad slogans are rarely accurate...but 50% of the strength of Titebond is a travesty...to go through all of the mess involved with that glue and end up with a weak bond is just a shame....not to mention Gorilla Glue is $12 around here for a bottle of a size that costs $3 in Titebond. And the worst part?Every single hardware/big box store around here stocks it and has a special little stand set up for it at the end of the aisle where you can't miss it and it's big logo,as if it were a small fireworks stand...meanwhile Titebond and Elmers wood glue are hidden in the aisle beyond...5 or 6 bottles compared to 50 bottles of Gorilla. I despise how easy it is to fool people with marketing.It fooled me when it first came out(I asked about it at a "fine woodworking" shop when I first saw it at the counter and was assured it was much better than "wood glue")I started out using it on tops(in my estimation it was tough to know how tight the center of a top was and I wanted it's legendary "gap filling" ability...I was pissed about the mess foaming so much it spilled over my saran wrap I always use and ruining my aluminum counter top and floor...but I was really pissed more recently when I discovered those tops were starting to separate in places at the glue line and those splits soaked up CA like it was going out of style.My resulting recent tests of it were horrifying when I was breaking test joints(butt joints) with my fingers after full cure. That is more of a rant than I intended.I better stop before my head explodes. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RestorationAD Posted May 3, 2013 Author Report Share Posted May 3, 2013 Awesome Wes! This type of information gets lost time to time and it is our job as forum regulars to re-propagate the truth about how things really work. I will add that I built a shower stool for my now wife out of morado using Gorilla Glue. It fell apart in about 3 weeks. Not because of the water but because the glue joints failed. Had I used epoxy it would still be in the shower. I used Polyurethane glue on the headstock wings on the Hand of Doom. Bad glue lines forced me to backstrap and faceplate the headstock and I believe that is the only reason it is still together. I also used it on a few earlier guitars for headstock wings and had horrible glue lines as well. Luckily those earlier guitars died in fires... I thought polyurethane glue would work fine on my weed eater handle that broke. The bond broke after 3 uses. I super glued it afterwards and it has been a year. I have used it to successfully add glue to screwed 2x4 joints on work benches and tool tables but the foam and the mess is not worth it. After the stool fiasco I did tests like Wes and my results were always horrifying. Polyurethane glue is not for serious woodworking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheRiley Posted May 3, 2013 Report Share Posted May 3, 2013 Poly glue is not a replacement for wood glue. It works great for certain things but should not be marketed the way it is. I build giant scale r/c airplanes and it is the best option for gluing thin balsa sheeting to foam cores. Myself and some others have done some extensive testing with the three most common types of poly(gorilla, elmers, and titebond). I prefer the titebond brand of poly for a number of reasons but I will not bore you with the details since none of them are least bit useful for guitar building. In short...the materials you glue must be very porous and clamped or weighted down very tightly. I usually put over 250lbs of weight on a single wing panel to make sure the foaming action permeates deep enough(also use water/ammonia mixture to increase the foaming). Tight grained wood/most hardwood is not a good candidate...neither are plastics or metals(despite what the bottle says). Anyway...Nice work RAD! This thread is awesome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prostheta Posted May 3, 2013 Report Share Posted May 3, 2013 An important point I took on board in my recent degree module on adhesives is that an adhesive should be simple to prepare, easy to apply and appropriate. It always comes back to glues like Titebond. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RestorationAD Posted May 3, 2013 Author Report Share Posted May 3, 2013 Poly glue is not a replacement for wood glue. It works great for certain things but should not be marketed the way it is. I build giant scale r/c airplanes and it is the best option for gluing thin balsa sheeting to foam cores. Myself and some others have done some extensive testing with the three most common types of poly(gorilla, elmers, and titebond). I prefer the titebond brand of poly for a number of reasons but I will not bore you with the details since none of them are least bit useful for guitar building. In short...the materials you glue must be very porous and clamped or weighted down very tightly. I usually put over 250lbs of weight on a single wing panel to make sure the foaming action permeates deep enough(also use water/ammonia mixture to increase the foaming). Tight grained wood/most hardwood is not a good candidate...neither are plastics or metals(despite what the bottle says). Now that is good information on how and when to use polyurethane glue. Pro back the site up so if it crashes again we don't lose all this cool stuff... I miss the hand of doom thread (I have the whole thing archived so I could post it again...) .Anyway...Nice work RAD! This thread is awesome.Thanks! I try.No one asks questions anymore so I don't get to rant about stuff like this... I kinda miss explaining things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prostheta Posted May 3, 2013 Report Share Posted May 3, 2013 I'll look into some form of an automated backup however I believe that backing up is now a "premium" feature of the IP boards and not the cheapest of options AFAIK. By all means post the HOD again! It would be great to see her thread back in the land of the living. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottR Posted May 3, 2013 Report Share Posted May 3, 2013 No glue hijacking in my threads! I have spoken out about clamping pressure, joints, and glues enough everyone knows how I feel. Kind of hijacked it yourself, didn't you? Thanks for reposting those articles, I like to refer back to them from time to time. No one asks questions anymore so I don't get to rant about stuff like this... I kinda miss explaining things. The board could use a new crop of eager to learn, can't wait to get started, I'm gonna build me a guitar, but I'm gonna pay attention and do it right type future luthiers to help get going in the proper direction. Maybe a bunch of those guests and lurkers will sign up, log in, and start asking questions. If they do, we need to be prepared to answer the same question several times........ We have been known to get cranky sometimes when that happens too often. +1 on HOD SR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pauliemc Posted May 3, 2013 Report Share Posted May 3, 2013 Hey RAD ! when are you gonna start to be as forthcoming with your pickup knowledge as you are with everything else about building gitirs ? Not that im complaining, I love the amount of info I find in a RAD thread. its one of the reasons I follow them. but some of us are just plain braindead when it comes to pickups & the rest of the electrical bits in a guitar. I personaly believe electricity is a plot by magic ninjas, how else can it be explained How I consistantly manage to wire up guitars that work is beyond me. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psikoT Posted May 4, 2013 Report Share Posted May 4, 2013 but some of us are just plain braindead when it comes to pickups & the rest of the electrical bits in a guitar. I personaly believe electricity is a plot by magic ninjas, how else can it be explained Add me to the list, I feel like a retarded at wiring time... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.