Single Coils And Narrow Field Humbuckers

[ScottR]

It is usually possible to tell whether you are hearing a single coil or a humbucker jus from listening alone. The narrow magnetic field and single line of poles produce the crisp clear sound of a single coil and the wider magnetic field and double point or origin for that field make for the warmer, thicker sound of the humbucker.

I've always felt it could be illustrated by tapping one finger on something, say a nice piece of tonewood for argument's sake, and then tap two fingers at the same time on the same piece. You can hear the difference. The sound waves must be shaped differently.

I'm going a little far afield with that analogy...to get to this question: does that thicker warmer humbucker sound come from the fact that there are two coils alone, or from the fact that they are separated and create a two point origin of the magnetic field.....reading two points on the vibrating string?

Which leads to the next question: do narrow field humbuckers, twin rails, stacked coils and the like, sound just like single coils due to the narrow magnetic field or does the second coil involved impart a little humbucker sound to them?

Well, those questions are probably clear as mud.....

SR

[pan_kara]

This could be an interesting discussion. I know little about the inner workings of pickups.

I remember reading that the bright sound of single coils comes from the higher resonant peak (caused by lower DC resistance). What exactly is the interplay between this and the magnetic field configuration I don't really know.

What I used to think is that the wider humbucker pickup area makes it possible for the high frequency overtones to be muted due to destructive interference - if the wavelength starts being comparable to the pickup area. Or aperture as it apparently is being called.

ok, so I i just went googled around and found this:

http://till.com/articles/index.html

wow!

there are two articles on this, dealing with the pickup aperture effect on tone and pickup combinations. And there is a cool Java applet that lets you choose pickup size etc and move it around.

You can even add more pickups in/out of phase and play with that. Why haven't I seen this earlier?? Awesome!

Indeed looks like a singlecoil (1 inch aperture) has an EQ dip around 6 kHz and as you make the pickup bigger this dip moves to lower frequencies linearly. So for a 2 inch aperture we're cutting out 3 kHz. That would fit, no?

[ScottR]

That is indeed a cool ap. Wez posted that one or one very similar to it about a year ago.

It sounds like you are leaning toward aperature width being the main reason for th difference in sound between humbuckers and single coils.

If that is true, then is should be true that humbuckers can sound just like single coils just by having a narrow aperature.

The answers to that may be more subjective...but I'm very interested in opinions. I have never had the oportunity to directly compare single coils to humbuckers intended to sound like single coils. Do they really sound like single coils (without the hum) or can you still tell the difference if you what to listen for?

SR

[Workingman]

If you think about it, P90's are single coils with a fat coil and sound more like a HB than most single coils. On most strats if you play the neck and the middle pup, or the bridge and middle pup, you have two coils and they are humbucking. They still sound like single coils to me.

[pan_kara]

And then you take a twin-blade mini humbucker and it does sound pretty much like a single coil. I haven't (as Scott) done direct comparisons but I've put a dimarzio cruzer into a strat I'm putting together (basically following the Andy Timmons pickup config), I played around with it and did some recording and it does sound much like a single. I tried coil-tapping it and there is very little chance (apart from the lower output).

[westhemann]

The Duncan Hot Rails are twin blade humbuckers in a single coil housing and they sound pretty great for rock/metal...not quite as much low end as a full size humbucker but more clarity

[ScottR]

not quite as much low end as a full size humbucker but more clarity

....sounds like a discription of a single coil. I think a P-90 sounds more like a humbucker than a strat sized single coil because of its warmer tone. I can still hear the difference....what I think is the width of the magnetic field.

This is my F-hole guitar with A4 PAF humbuckers:

http://www.skullsessions.com/audio/riffle/CD Track 01.mp3

And this is nearly the same thing played with P-90s:

http://www.skullsessions.com/audio/riffle/CD Track 02.mp3

The rhythm track is the same for both and is the humbuckers.

They have very nearly the same tone (which means RAD achieved what I asked him to do)......but surely I'm not imagining hearing the difference and being able to identify which is which?

SR

[westhemann]

....sounds like a discription of a single coil.

Not at all.Remember I am coming from a high gain metal perspective.Single coils are less than useless for me.Hot Rails are hot as hell and quiet under gain,neither of which at all describes a single coil

Hot Rails sound most like a Dimebucker,with slightly less bottom end

[DropTop]

I 've read or watched a vid about it and what i got was that in a two coil humbucker you actually get a mean value of your signal.That has the affect of cutting some higher frequences witch in turn give the sense of warmer sound.Hope that is rellevant.

[ScottR]

So Wes, you are saying that Hot Rails are a narrow field humbucker that does not sound like a single coil.

And DropTop, you are saying that because of the two coils and high frequency loss a humbucker will not sound like a single coil according to what you've seen or read.....unless it is a short wide coil like a P-90 which does have a warmer sound.

I think it is possible for a humbucker to possess a similar tone to a single coil. I just don't know about that single point clarity that is characteristic of a single coil. And what about that classic hollow sound of a Strat neck pup or center pup? I've never heard a slit humbucker come close. But I don't know if there are humbuckers that are intentionally designed to sound like that....and if so do they succeed?

That's why I'm asking.....I just don't know.

SR

[Tim37]

i would say like a guitars sound itself a pickups sound is a combination of things. magnetic field, field placement, magnet strength. but also i would say coil inductance has a big part in the sound of a pickup.

[SwedishLuthier]

There is no such thing as a single sound from "a Humbucker" or "a singlecoil". There is way to much parameters to tweak. Just look at the above confusion when looking at rail and stacked HBs. To me those does not at all sound like a single coil, but to many other they are a perfect imitation of a singlecoil. That is the first problem. The next is that you can underwound or overwound a pickup and change the sound. A low wound P90 will be much more in the range of a single coil when ti comes to sound compared to a standard, quite hot P90. And you can overwind a traditional tele pickup, loose the steel base plate, place it in a brass tele bridge and you have something that reaches into Jazzmaster or P90 territory.

However if we disregard my rant I would say that a rail HB in the size of a start pickup and with an over all DC resistance that match a traditional strat pickup will sound reasonably close to a strat pickup. The main reason for this is that the "magnetic window" is similar in size and shape. And the main reason for the difference in sound between the sc-sized hb is the shape of the magnetic field and the added blades in the coil (search eddy currents in guitar pickups for an explanation). Here is a site with some interesting pics of magnetic fields in pickups:

http://www.skguitar.com/SKGS/sk/Images/pickups/Pickup%20stuff/Magnetics.htm

I learned a lot from those pics when I started winding pickups.

[ScottR]

Thanks for that info Peter. I was hoping you'd chime in.

So in your opinion you can get a humbucker to approximate the sound of a single coil is for it to be the same size as the target single coil and wound to the same resistance......but no humbucker can sound exactly like a single coil?

That was my opinion as well, but I don't have the experience or breadth of knowledge to justify it.

SR

[SwedishLuthier]

So in your opinion you can get a humbucker to approximate the sound of a single coil is for it to be the same size as the target single coil and wound to the same resistance......but no humbucker can sound exactly like a single coil?

Exactly, you managed to condense my post into that single sentence Scott.

[Mender]

Just to confuse the issue, a stacked humbucker can sound very like a normal single coil because you still only have a single row of pole pieces. Many years ago, I had a 1978 Hondo II Strat copy, but the bridge was like a tele three saddle bridge without the pickup surround. The pickups were DiMarzio stacked pickups and looked just like standard Strat pickups, but I was surprised that there was no hum. I took the pickups out and slid the covers off. Two coils, one on top of the other, and one was reverse wound. The impedance of the neck and middle pickups was 6k, with the bridge being 7.5k. I have no idea what the inductance was.

The most interesting thing was the sound. The guitar sounded just like a 1970s Strat, except the switch was wired for bridge, bridge + neck, middle, middle + neck, so no bridge and middle setting. A wonderful sounding guitar. This model, but mine was blond ash finish body

I've played around with Strat size blade humbuckers - I have two of them fitted on a Squier Showmaster, and while they are more single coil sound than normal size humbuckers, they don't quite sound like single coils.

[SwedishLuthier]

With older stacked HBs you have the same magnetic field as in a "normal" SC. It could be why that pickup sounded more like a traditional SC. With a blade (or double rows of thin poles as in the JB JR and similar) you have a very different magnetic field, and that will affect the sound of the pickup. As for the more modern stacked HBs you have a not more things going on, like magnetic shields between coils, dummy poles to load the impedance and stuff like that that I can't even start to wrap my head around.

Personally I have yet to hear an old-school stacked HB that sounds like a "real" vintage SC, but that's a personal opinion. The newer "virtual vintage" or Noiseless type of pickups comes really close IMHO

The main thing is: If you like the sound, it is right for you. We should focus on that rather then "is this hookup wire made with the 1952 or the 1953 specs?". Find what suits you and go with that.

[Shaikoski]

I did a huge amount of research on this. First a good understanding of magnets is very important. Second you need to know how the pickup is made.

Let's start with basic parts of most pickups.

Poles whether magnetized (typical single-coil) or not (typical humbucker) they are the first conduit from the vibration of the strings in that the magnetic field coming off of them is manipulated by the metal string moving inside of that field (this is why when your pickup and strings are closer together they produce a seemingly louder effect because the magnitude of the field is being changed in a greater way with the vibration of the string). Now you might be saying what the hell are you talking about with the poles of a humbucker not being magnetized, well to explain that there is a magnet (block of magnetized metal) underneath the two sets of poles which has it's magnetic effect go through the poles.

Wiring (specifically the wire wound around the poles) is generally copper. The widths and coverings vary to be so many different things, such as some having enamel covering the copper and similar things, however typically the wire is 42-48AWG (afaik). Now the general rule of thumb is that the more mass of wire the higher the capacitance, this is dictated by both the guage of wire and the winding of the wire around the poles (number of winds around the poles as well as the shape). I feel safe in saying that a lot of "voodoo" can come from all of this but there is science at work here for the most part. Typically your darker and clearer sounding pick-ups are wound more times around, btw feel free to correct me if I am wrong at all during this post.

The humbucker is called such because it is known to have less of a hum. This is so because of the dual sets of poles (which have wire wound around each seperately) creating two seperate magnetic fields which "buck" against each other. I wish I had a diagram but sadly I am at work during a very slow day but i'm sure it is out on the interwebs somewhere. Also there is the higher capacitance to consider as a result of having two sets of pole pieces. I think the single coil type sound coming from mini-buckers that some people were stating here is probably resulting more from a lower capacitance due to smaller design, however I haven't done much of any research into atypical pickup designs (mostly just standard HB vs. SC).

The single coil sound to me is much more raw and twangy, I hope that you can see why after explaining the humbucker. The design of a single coil pickup is very untamed in the sense that it is free from having a partner to metaphysically keep it in check.

I very much suggest that if you want to know more about the other less common pickup designs and their tonal effects to seek more details like this pertaining to their design or, if you have enough money, reverse-engineer them (i.e. take them apart and learn).

please ask as many questions as you wish and correct any errors of truth that i have made, this is not as comprehensive as it could be

[SwedishLuthier]

Just a few thoughts about this (sorry for dissecting your post, but it makes it easier for me…)

Poles whether magnetized (typical single-coil) or not (typical humbucker) […] Now you might be saying what the hell are you talking about with the poles of a humbucker not being magnetized, well to explain that there is a magnet (block of magnetized metal) underneath the two sets of poles which has it's magnetic effect go through the poles.

Not quite correct. The poles of a traditional HB are magnetized. However they are not permanently magnetized. Remove the magnet that magnetizes the poles and the pole is not magnetized anymore.

And let’s not forget the Firebird HB pickups that have permanent magnets for “poles”…

This is so because of the dual sets of poles (which have wire wound around each seperately) creating two seperate magnetic fields which "buck" against each other.

It’s rather the two separate coils that are connected out of phase with each other that creates the hum canceling effect. The sound of the strings are not canceled as the magnetic field through the two coils also is out of phase and (cue Homer Simpson voice) “two wrongs make one right”, meaning the double out of phase (both electrical and magnetically) sums up the electrical signal to one single in phase signal going to the lead wires.

Typically your darker and clearer sounding pick-ups are wound more times around, btw feel free to correct me if I am wrong at all during this post.

“darker and clearer” seems to be a contradiction. More copper wire around the coil -> higher resistance and higher output as output is a linear function of the “turn count” of the coil (I have written about this on here before, do a search). At the same time the resistance in the coil is part of the sound shaping filter circuit of the guitars electronic, even though we traditionally doesn’t think of the pickups resistance like that. However my knowledge of first, second and third order analogue filters are not good enough to be able to discuss that in a proper way. However a thought-experiment is to wind two exactly identical pickups except for the wire gauge. Let’s say we make a HB with 5000 turns per coil, using AWG42 for one pickup and AWG44 for the other. The one with AWG44 will have a significantly higher resistance and that resistance in itself will act as part of this complicated filter and thus attenuating the treble.