ScottR Posted December 30, 2015 Report Share Posted December 30, 2015 On 12/26/2015 at 1:16 PM, Prostheta said: ....eyeballing the template here, I would say that it should be enough if it is a snug joint. The treble sidewall provides a less than preferable gluing surface, however if the neck could gain even 1/2" more into the body it would be golden. Hell, you could extend it well into the neck pickup area and just rout it out after the fact. Agreed. However, pay very close attention to the taper if you attempt that. You have already created some dimensions that your neck must fit and extending the pocket into the body will change those a bit. Increasing the depth of your neck pocket will give you more gluing surface as well, but do not do so until you have finished your neck enough to have the final dimensions. The pocket depth will play a major role in setting the height of the neck-fretboard-and ultimately string height over the body and into the bridge. You need to figure out what you need before making any more changes. SR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prostheta Posted January 1, 2016 Report Share Posted January 1, 2016 Totally. Doing it backwards way on complicates things, however if you understand how and why it does so then you can work it back satisfactorily. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
komodo Posted January 1, 2016 Report Share Posted January 1, 2016 (edited) Consider a shaped heel with inset bolts. It can be very sleek and comfortable, and there are nice benefits to bolt on. Also regarding your book match glue line - you have such a unique top with contrasting angular lines, plus the spalt lines that I don't think anyone would even look in the center! Super nice job on the top bending to. That's a big victory right there. Edited January 1, 2016 by komodo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
14thandclark Posted January 2, 2016 Author Report Share Posted January 2, 2016 Okay so some big lessons learned... 1. Don't work from random internet templates. 2. Make the neck before routing the pocket on the body. I have some gap now on either side :-/ so at this point I have routed the neck pocket depth to almost an inch for some surface area. I'm not sure what the "oh crap" gap is in the neck pocket but while attempting to make the fretboard sit flush with the neck wood I have about 1/32 on each side give or take some. I suppose I can always resort back to a bolt on and use some filler to make it nice cosmetically. I'm attaching some pictures to see if it's something to worry about. Obviously more worried about a solid neck vs. cosmetics. Just for learning purposes I've read multiple ways for filling a gap in a neck pocket. Opinions on them would be awesome... 1. Filling it with wood and routing again (if you're painting a solid color) 2. Using shims (for angle and for wiggle) 3. And using a wood dust/ wood glue mix. Thanks for all the help. Loving this hobby. Learning a lot in the way of mistakes but having a good time doing it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prostheta Posted January 2, 2016 Report Share Posted January 2, 2016 Funny! I saw the debate on that Facebook group and didn't figure it was this build until just now. The angles in those photos make the joint look more precarious than it truly is. There's a lot of peanut gallery value opinions on there which simply serve to confuse what the best course of action is, so I think it's worthwhile breaking it down here where you'll get more sense and less ego static. "Making mistakes" I have always said that only make mistakes once, so once I make every single mistake known I should be perfect. "Don't work from Internet templates" Not true really! Templates are fine things to have however I wouldn't use them for the basis of a glued neck joint. Great for bolt-on if you have both mating pieces, however a neck pocket should be made as a copy of the neck itself ideally. It's pretty important to have a gap for bolt-on necks, simply because the finish can add to the thickness of the neck and reduce the width of the pocket. Not an issue for snug set necks of course. 3. Wood glue and sawdust Not even an option. This is fine for inlays and non-structural non-visible repairs (filling a pickup screw location that has chipped up for example). For a neck, you are asking for it to fail within a short timeframe. 2. Shims This can work, however it is more likely to introduce voids or weak spots which can undermine the structural value of the neck joint. This is a yes/no purely on the basis of it depending on how well it is executed. You need confident guarantees with this. 1. Filling-rerouting, painting solid In any other circumstance where you're not using feature woods then perhaps. A surgically-made infill is as good as the original wood. Given that painting solid is mentioned, maybe not so much.... An option not considered is to use subterfuge to hide a repair. This is precarious since it needs precise clean cuts to pull off, a LOT of confidence in your woodworking and a clear plan of action. Cut the body up. Slice it in lines parallel to the neck taper, rejoint it and glue in stringers. It will then look like a faux neck-through from the front. Obviously these stringers would need to coincide with the neck pocket so they refill it slightly. Ebony or Walnut would look great. If you want to go ahead with it as it stands, epoxy like West System 105 will work perfectly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prostheta Posted January 2, 2016 Report Share Posted January 2, 2016 I kind of have to mention this, however. Facebook groups are mostly people whose "assistance" is more angled to make a statement about themselves than it is about genuinely offering useful advice. As always, patience pays off. Walking away for a day is fine, as it will always be there in the state you left it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
14thandclark Posted January 2, 2016 Author Report Share Posted January 2, 2016 6 hours ago, Prostheta said: If you want to go ahead with it as it stands, epoxy like West System 105 will work perfectly. Thanks a lot for all the advice. After staring at it for a day in a half I guess I'm just deciding whether to resort back to the bolt on option or use the epoxy you suggested. Is there an advantage to using that epoxy vs a wood glue? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
14thandclark Posted January 2, 2016 Author Report Share Posted January 2, 2016 And I actually didn't know there was a Facebook group talking about this. I'd like to see! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prostheta Posted January 2, 2016 Report Share Posted January 2, 2016 Really? Oh, okay then! There's a builder making a kit guitar (this explains a lot of confusion since this was from a template!) and he has gaps that look exactly the same as yours. People are recommending all kinds of poor ideas which doesn't do any favours for the poor lad trying to get his kit sorted. He only posted two photos so that added to the mixup. People that are there to learn just don't get good information; just opinions and static. I hate to say this, but I see that behaviour a lot. Facebook and YouTube peanut galleries. Really not the kind of place where you can find a reasoned and polite group discussion on finding solutions....it's often Like baiting and piddling arguments over "who was right first" or "who is more right than everybody else"....often the original question is totally secondary to the egowang waving.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prostheta Posted January 2, 2016 Report Share Posted January 2, 2016 In his case, the join looked so small in terms of glueing surface area that I am unsure whether anything could be called reliable. Hard to tell from the two photos though. You had people "recommending" wetting the wood to expand it (it contracts when it dries) and using wood dust mixed with glue. Really poor ideas. In his case, epoxy is probably the best way out. That is, if he can cut through the masses of posts recommending silly things and find the good info. Sorry, rant over. I get touchy in my old age when I see people encouraging expensive mistakes simply for "Likes". That totally undermines the objectives of learning and making our instruments the best that they can be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prostheta Posted January 2, 2016 Report Share Posted January 2, 2016 46 minutes ago, 14thandclark said: Thanks a lot for all the advice. After staring at it for a day in a half I guess I'm just deciding whether to resort back to the bolt on option or use the epoxy you suggested. Is there an advantage to using that epoxy vs a wood glue? Advantages and disadvantages. Epoxy is mechanically quite strong on its own, so it doesn't rely on bonding two perfectly mating surfaces together. Both surfaces bond to the epoxy and it acts as a medium; a mechanical glue and gap filler. Very very strong. That said, many people - possibly rightly - say that an epoxied neck joint that doesn't consist of good mating surfaces doesn't sound very good. Wood glue forms a film and penetrates the wood surfaces. The surfaces need to be in contact however as it doesn't work well if it's just filling gaps. Don't even mention polyurethane or Gorilla Glue.... I didn't think that bolt-on was still a tabled option for you. In that case, I would say that it is the most reliable and consistent. It just means that you are stuck with the heel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottR Posted January 3, 2016 Report Share Posted January 3, 2016 I'd glue in oversize shims on each side of the neck pocket of either the neck wood or the top wood. Then sand them flush with the top and re-route the pocket to match your neck. It will be plenty strong. SR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
komodo Posted January 3, 2016 Report Share Posted January 3, 2016 58 minutes ago, ScottR said: I'd glue in oversize shims on each side of the neck pocket of either the neck wood or the top wood. Then sand them flush with the top and re-route the pocket to match your neck. It will be plenty strong. SR I would too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curtisa Posted January 3, 2016 Report Share Posted January 3, 2016 Ditto. The figure on the spalted top on the treble-side of the pocket is plain enough for you to hide it with a matching plain piece of spalt...provided you have some scraps from the original top left over to choose from. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
14thandclark Posted January 3, 2016 Author Report Share Posted January 3, 2016 Yes I do I guess I'll give it a shot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
14thandclark Posted January 3, 2016 Author Report Share Posted January 3, 2016 Success! Centered tight fit. Thanks for the advice 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottR Posted January 4, 2016 Report Share Posted January 4, 2016 Well done. Start yourself a bag of tricks and add that to it. Making mistakes and then making spectacular saves is something we all end up doing. We all end up digging into our bags of tricks ........ more often than we'd like to admit. SR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prostheta Posted January 4, 2016 Report Share Posted January 4, 2016 Very nicely done! That's a really nice fix and you should be proud of it. If you didn't tell anybody about it, nobody would notice. This sort of plays into @ScottR's comment just now....hahaha.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
14thandclark Posted January 5, 2016 Author Report Share Posted January 5, 2016 This question is for future reference. Just trying to do some research. I don't have access to any area to finish my guitar by spraying. I'm in the military so it's tough to find appropriate work space. I found this video on YouTube and was wondering if it's a decent option? Ive read good things about doing an oil finish on the neck but this is for protecting the body and headstock. Should be routing for the trem today. Got my post holes done along with the tuner holes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prostheta Posted January 5, 2016 Report Share Posted January 5, 2016 In the absence of alternatives, it might well be. I've heard mixed reports about Solarez; is it specifically formulated for use on things like guitars? Not that this means much since most of the finishes used on guitars started out being used on everything BUT guitars. I guess I'd like to understand where those negatives come from and why. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norris Posted January 6, 2016 Report Share Posted January 6, 2016 Maybe @Andyjr1515 could offer some advice. I'm sure he's finished a few guitars using brushed varnish Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andyjr1515 Posted January 8, 2016 Report Share Posted January 8, 2016 Hi Just did a long reply, then lost it! I'll repost this evening with some thoughts... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andyjr1515 Posted January 8, 2016 Report Share Posted January 8, 2016 (edited) OK - so yes - I tend to use a wipe on varnish approach for gloss finish. Reasons are the same - I don't have a shed, or a garage, or a workshop so I have to do things either on the back patio (and in the UK, that can be VERY restricting) or inside in a small spare bedroom/study. I use standard polyurethane varnish, but thinned down by 30-50% with white spirits (not sure what the US name for this is, but it's the clear spirit used for cleaning brushes after using oil-based decorators gloss paints). I wipe it on with a cheap microfibre cloth...MUCH better than using brushes (I think I read somewhere that 80% of dust bunnies come from the brush itself...). Happy to do a thread if it is of any interest. Results are never quite as good as a very well executed spray, flattened and buffed professional spray job, but they are not bad and can be done in any reasonably ventilated indoor space: Ref the Solarez, I can see a few issues - working away from natural daylight until you want it to cure, talk of 'pinholes', the statement that 'it goes extremely hard and takes considerable sanding'. For that kind of challenge, 2-pack solutions probably offer as good without the added issue of having to do it by candlelight.... Let me know if you want a full thread on my wipe-on approach - there are some tips and tricks and some significant differences to the normal post-spray approach... Edited January 8, 2016 by Andyjr1515 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
14thandclark Posted January 11, 2016 Author Report Share Posted January 11, 2016 Got some routing done Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curtisa Posted January 11, 2016 Report Share Posted January 11, 2016 Thread moved to appropriate subforum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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