tele for a cop...

[ScottR]

On 12/7/2021 at 4:57 AM, mistermikev said:

thank you prostheta... orange you glad I only did one gotm this year?  run out of colors pretty quick (hehe).  well I gotta admit the bug has me right now!  I have the sister build, was working on the neck last night... have my orig one where I cracked the top and managed to save it... but I'll prob just leave that sit for a bit.  have the 'fish on' hope to resume that next... then I'm gonna build a lp style... and I've got a couple friends who want me to build something - but I told them right now I got to get back to my own bucket list... maybe corall one of them into a lp style.  so many things I really want to build tho... at some point i'd love to attempt a real hollowbody like a country gentleman or byrdland or falcon... but I gotta remember to enjoy the ride.  slow down... enjoy the process.  life is too short!!

Holy crap! I had forgotten you had so many irons in the fire.

SR

[mistermikev]

2 hours ago, ScottR said:

Holy crap! I had forgotten you had so many irons in the fire.

SR

yeah, I've actually found that pretty unpleasant... having so many unended starts.  My mind having random thoughts about any one of them... and lost because I didn't have time to write it down.  Admittedly over-extended there, going to try finish some things before i start anymore.

[Prostheta]

I'm of the opinion that you shouldn't force a project to be progressed unless you can genuinely put positive work into it. I've written off way too many projects - or at least put them into a less than satisfactory state - by forcing them forward. One thing at a time, and always with confidence.

[mistermikev]

4 hours ago, Prostheta said:

I'm of the opinion that you shouldn't force a project to be progressed unless you can genuinely put positive work into it. I've written off way too many projects - or at least put them into a less than satisfactory state - by forcing them forward. One thing at a time, and always with confidence.

well that is certainly true.  For me... freq I benefit from setting something down as I'll think about it periodically and potentially traverse unforseen pitfalls and/or birth additional ideas... but the inverse of that is "Idea paralization" ie not moving fwd for fear that there is a better way I'm on the cusp of discovering... so it's a bit of a razors edge. 

I figure, like the song says, "a time to cast away stones, a time to gather stones together".  In order to not be burdened by too many unfinished projects... one must finish what they've started.  But finishing it just to finish it... can't do that. 

We all have to wrestle internally with those things and in the end just take your best shot.  I really got in this position by allowing myself to get diverted into a build for a friend... and I've got lots of friends... but what I've learned: I think going fwd I would try to wrangle that into "well if you want me to build another of what I'm already working on, then fine, otherwise it's going to be a loooooong wait!" 

There is simply a chain of things I feel I must build.  Each with a lesson to learn.  Right now I really feel like I want to study the greats.  the les paul, the prs, a 335 style, a full hollowbody/byrdland/country gentleman style...  then the other half of me that wants to study the great basses... the carl t, the jazz, the rick, ns2. 

"First we learn to draw by copying".  That said... have to remember to enjoy the ride while finding one self! 

[Prostheta]

Procrastination in the guise of gathering stones, sometimes? haha

[mistermikev]

6 minutes ago, Prostheta said:

Procrastination in the guise of gathering stones, sometimes? haha

very much so!  (it's the perfect crime)

[mistermikev]

but today... is a day for gathering stones together (apparently).

I taped off the truss area and sealed the inside with wipe on poly...

just a shot of my headstock... a blurry one... but the fit of the tuning machines is superb (lucky)... that woosh sound when they go in the back... and I can feel the ferrules drop in just to where the ribs start... so a nice tight fit (assuming nothing splits later).

glued on my fretboard and started cutting my profile...

 

[mistermikev]

welp... so much for that. 

every now and then my ess complains that it has lost data.  Fairly rare... I assume it is prob related to some service I should have shut off on my pc (windows updates or perhaps related to my ill-advised use of a shared drive to my main pc and that network connection refreshing). 

When this happens, I have to go to zero, shutdown everything... restart... AND BE CAREFUL TO REMEMBER TO RESET MY ZERO ON ALL 3 AXIS.  what happens when you don't reset them you ask?  and you say... start running the program?  well bad things. 

in this case I put my cnc bit right trough my truss rod.  literally at the exact very LAST step to getting this neck off the cnc, just flattening the heel a bit (.06").  prob runied the bit, maybe drove my cnc out of square... and def 'start over' on this neck.  Oh well... it's a learning experience! 

Fortunately it wasn't even that scary.  I have a plexiglass surround around my cnc, and everything was held down tight... so the bit just went right through the truss rod and probably into my spoil board and perhaps even into the aluminum track below.  I hit the emergency button before it even moved cause it looks like just a straight hole.  now I know what an accident feels like.  no one hurt, nothing really even crazy... reached over and stopped it.  

the right spirit at this point: this is an opportunity to refine my code for this neck and make it even better.  

[Bizman62]

11 hours ago, mistermikev said:

a shot of my headstock... a blurry one...

Not entirely blurry! The upper right corner is so crisp I could almost read the letters on the bolt.

9 hours ago, mistermikev said:

I assume it is prob related to some service I should have shut off on my pc

I strongly suggest you to perform this trick at least weekly, or rather right before you start doing any serious work: Keep the Shift button pressed while clicking Shutdown. That will force Windows start from scratch instead of using potentially cumulatively corrupted settings Windows tends to save to speed up the start. Sleep mode still makes Windows wonky.

[mistermikev]

6 hours ago, Bizman62 said:

Not entirely blurry! The upper right corner is so crisp I could almost read the letters on the bolt.

I strongly suggest you to perform this trick at least weekly, or rather right before you start doing any serious work: Keep the Shift button pressed while clicking Shutdown. That will force Windows start from scratch instead of using potentially cumulatively corrupted settings Windows tends to save to speed up the start. Sleep mode still makes Windows wonky.

well I've got sleep mode disabled.  many of the unnec services disabled.  usb sleep disabled.  The more I think about it the more I think it's a networking issue.  ess is ethernet based, they tell you in the setup not to use a networked pc because it can cause issues.  Mach3... so stupid, instead of reading the cam code to memory it locks the file in place... likely is actively doing low level parse to/from the file over network share from my main pc... because I really don't want to have to worry about versions using a usb thumb.  the mach3 code was written back in the 90s when that was how you do it.  Probably the right solution is to share a folder on the cnc pc, so it will be local to that pc, and have my main pc access it when designing.  don't want do that on the system drive, so would have to add a secondary drive to the cnc machine.  It happens so rarely that i'm not all that concerned... and frankly the fault of this was me not concentrating.  anytime you restart mach3 you have to set your coordinates so if one "plays stupid games" one will "win stupid prizes"!

[Prostheta]

Ah, we've turned this into a computer fault discussion thread now then? Cool, I'm in....hahaha

My second monitor off this laptop started turning itself off randomly thanks to some sort of electrical fault. Percussive maintainence revives it, but less and less. Yet another thing to have to replace. I'm King Sick of e-Waste (all hail, etc). Opening it up provided no good information on whether it's a faulty solder joint (most likely) or a dodgy cap (less likely at this age).

[mistermikev]

1 hour ago, Prostheta said:

Ah, we've turned this into a computer fault discussion thread now then? Cool, I'm in....hahaha

My second monitor off this laptop started turning itself off randomly thanks to some sort of electrical fault. Percussive maintainence revives it, but less and less. Yet another thing to have to replace. I'm King Sick of e-Waste (all hail, etc). Opening it up provided no good information on whether it's a faulty solder joint (most likely) or a dodgy cap (less likely at this age).

"percussive maintenance" love it.  I've had this issue that I thought was related to graphics card... I leave my pc on always and occassionally it is all of the sudden not displaying correct.  it's like lines everywhere... seemed initially to me like the graphics card was only drawing every other line of pixels.  well, completely newer build 16 core with 8gb graphics card and new monitor... does the sm thing.  eventually figured out that it is actually an issue with the monitor... as if one turns the monitor off and back on - problem solved.  Odd that two completely different builds, two completely different monitors would have the sm behavior... not a mystery that really needs solving... but it's interesting.  

[curtisa]

Mach probably mention not networking your milling PC because historically if you had such a setup in a mission critical shop environment there'd be no way any sane machinist would use that PC for anything other than milling. The CNC computer would be used for one task and one task only.

FWIW LinuxCNC carries similar recommendations regarding networking and shared usage. Personally I just live with the hassle of transferring files using USB sticks when required. Fusion360 isn't supported on Linux anyway, so invariably I'm double-handling everything when transitioning between designing and milling.

[mistermikev]

1 hour ago, curtisa said:

Mach probably mention not networking your milling PC because historically if you had such a setup in a mission critical shop environment there'd be no way any sane machinist would use that PC for anything other than milling. The CNC computer would be used for one task and one task only.

FWIW LinuxCNC carries similar recommendations regarding networking and shared usage. Personally I just live with the hassle of transferring files using USB sticks when required. Fusion360 isn't supported on Linux anyway, so invariably I'm double-handling everything when transitioning between designing and milling.

right on, as I mentioned above I was aware of the ess setup saying such... and assumed the mach setup would say similar.  technically the network is on wifi protocol and ess is hardwired... but any sort of network comms is going to have freq pings and was aware of the potential for issues.  that said, when I started out I was transfering via usb and it was just rediculous.  have to constantly be careful to ensure you are running your latest version. 

Similarly... with a daw... it shouldn't be connected to a network nor running av (at least I'm not running av on my cnc pc).  Just made the conscious decision in both cases that I'd rather deal with the fall out from that than deal with not being connected to a network.

all that said... makes a lot of sense to move the share to the cnc pc... as then it's only being actively pinged when I'm designing.  In fact what I need to do is just make a cam folder... keep all other design files on my main pc... and only access that share when I'm exporting design work to cam code/files.  Could always disconnect from the network when running cnc as those files are then local.  

[Lumberjack]

Finally got around to reading through this build - such a beauty!  The final look is striking and very attractive.  Would definitely want this on my own guitar rack!

[mistermikev]

27 minutes ago, Lumberjack said:

Finally got around to reading through this build - such a beauty!  The final look is striking and very attractive.  Would definitely want this on my own guitar rack!

very kind of you to say, thank you.

 

[mistermikev]

on another note...

this got delivered to kevin yesterday.  he was complimentary of the looks, and then had a few detailed comments. I will take away from it opportunities to improve.

1) the neck pickup is tilted slightly at an angle... this was due to the fact that the neck mounts direct to the body, and the body is pretty thin there... and unfortunately there are 2 sets of shielded 4 conductor wire running under the pickup right there (one for 3 way, and one for pickup).  Plus the seymour vintage stack neck is super tall.  Not a lot of room to move up/down and admittedly things are sort of crammed.  I don't think I'll have the sm issue with the dimarzio since the neck pickup is not nearly as tall.  Not sure what i could do here other than option A - don't use vintage stack or option B change my semi hollow cavity to reroute the 3 way wires around the neck pickup slot.  sigh.

2) he was questioning the action.  now... when I first set this guitar up i measured with a recently aquired dimarzio action gauge.  my high e was .83~ mm at the 12, and low e was 1.19 mm.  No buzz except I noticed when you bend full step on a fret that is lower on the neck, you would start to fret out... due to the fact that the lower radius is 9.5" and upper is 12".  so I raised it a hair.  think i ended up around 1.1 mm for high e and 1.4 mm for low e.  Pretty rock solid low action if you ask me.  I can't see the guitar now, but the fact that he's asking about it... and the fact that he's in wisconsin where it's bloody cold and humid suggests to me that the neck has probably changed a bit from 'ideal', and if you want action that low you can't have change.  I told him not to touch it for a couple of days so we don't chase the neck reacting to environment.  Once we know it's settled in we can address.

3) the rotary... right off the bat he says "I don't know what the settings are".  hehe.  to me it seems pretty straight fwd... as you go backward you get more vintage until you reach position one which is single coils.  as you go fwd you get more modern till you reach 5 which is stacks in series.  I think once you use it for a bit you get the hang of it but ppul feel better having something that reassures them they know what is going on.  What I'll take away from this tho... is that I really should have taken a step I had thought of but didn't like the look of - making a washer with labels for the positions.  something like SS, XS, PS, XP, SC for series stacks, series x pattern, parallel stacks, parallel x pattern, single coils.  

a fruitful experience anyway... I like to think I'm my own critic.  each one of these topics were def on my radar... but having someone else see your work and confirm is enlightening.

[Bizman62]

14 hours ago, mistermikev said:

2) he was questioning the action

You/he do(es)n't tell if the action is too high or too low or different to how you had adjusted it so just store this to where you think it belongs:

Just a couple of days ago I wathced yet another Jerry Rosa video, this time about adjusting a new mandolin to suit the player. A major issue was that the player felt that the action was high while the measurements told the contrary. How can that be possible? Well, the explanation was very simple although I've never heard or seen it discussed elsewhere: Some players want to press the strings right down to the fretboard while others barely make them touch the fret metal. Now this mandolin had jumbo frets and the player was the fretboard pressing type. There's no action low enough to compensate that distance! So putting smaller frets in was the solution.

 

[mistermikev]

3 hours ago, Bizman62 said:

You/he do(es)n't tell if the action is too high or too low or different to how you had adjusted it so just store this to where you think it belongs:

Just a couple of days ago I wathced yet another Jerry Rosa video, this time about adjusting a new mandolin to suit the player. A major issue was that the player felt that the action was high while the measurements told the contrary. How can that be possible? Well, the explanation was very simple although I've never heard or seen it discussed elsewhere: Some players want to press the strings right down to the fretboard while others barely make them touch the fret metal. Now this mandolin had jumbo frets and the player was the fretboard pressing type. There's no action low enough to compensate that distance! So putting smaller frets in was the solution.

 

well that is the conundrum.  If I had the instrument in front of me I could tell if something changed and it WAS actually in need of something... but since I don't I have to rely on feedback.  I am hyper aware of exactly what you describe above.  action can "feel" lower/higher depending on a lot of things.  The smaller scale length or lower tuning can "feel" lower due to less tension.  for some reason on a tighter radius things "feel" higher to me.  both taller frets and wider frets can "feel" higher.  my tuxedo has wide/low frets and even with higher action they def 'feel' lower... so to some degree I must push down to the fretboard a bit.  further the width of the fret will actually change the amount of tension it would take to depress the string between the frets while pushing down.  even tho the string only touches the knife center of a fret... you push down a bit harder and you are still on that knife edge on the ringing side... but the area between the frets where the string can depress is now a smaller length due to wider frets.  very few of us have butterfly touch on a guitar.

Imagine that mandolin had scallops! 

further kevin is likely comparing this to his axis neck... while this was based on measurements for the axis profile... there are a ton of variables at play there- different fretboard radius, different frets, different bridge and the measurements I started with did not come from his actual guitar which may have been sanded dif, one machine may have been calibrated dif - a whole world of things could be dif,  taking action (pardon the pun) based on "feel", without any measurement, is a bad idea.  Further we know this neck has changed environments.  It has been my experience that even in the sm environment, when changing strings... it takes a day for the neck to "return" to it's natural state.  if you are someone who likes extremely low action... any small change can make a difference that "feels" huge.

Was having a talk w a guy with a lot of experience setting up guitars who says "once the fret is pressed, the nut has no impact".  his thought was that you set the nut as low as possible and then set action.  logically no one can refute that (once the fret is held the nut doesn't matter).  This is how I always have done it in the past - setting the nut as low as you can without buzz.  that said, it has been my observation lately that where you set the nut CAN actually change where you set the action on the rest of the guitar.  if you set as low as possible at the nut you end up having to set it a hair higher on the saddle end to prevent string buzz at the first fret when open.  if you set it just a few nipple hairs higher at the nut (talking about a very small dif here)... you can actually set the saddle end a hair lower, and this results in a slightly higher feel at the 1-7 but a sort of "optimal spot" around 12-15 where it plays even lower than it would have had you set the nut as low as possible.  Further if you put a lot of relief in a guitar it would most def change how low you can set the nut.  further, one relief <> another relief.  the truss rod length and centerpoint, how deep it sits in the heel... these things can all impact the 'curve' of the relief.  some guitars have more of a "U" while others have "half a U" if that makes any sense.  You can add fall away... but not that much fall away.

at the end of it all... the hands ability to sense changes that likely even the most sophisticated indicator dials would not show... makes this all alchemy!

[Bizman62]

4 hours ago, mistermikev said:

"once the fret is pressed, the nut has no impact"

That's close to what Mr. Rosa says, for the same reason he says that the material of the nut doesn't affect the sound on a pressed string. And my logic has nothing against that.

4 hours ago, mistermikev said:

where you set the nut CAN actually change where you set the action on the rest of the guitar. 

That's interesting and I can sort of figure out why it's so. A string is a straight line between the nut and saddle but when you press it there's an angle in both directions. If the neck is dead straight and the action is the same all along the fretboard, the spot where the angles are identical is at the 12th fret, right in the middle. The steeper the angle, the harder it is to press the string down. Thus we make the nut end much lower, trying to get the angles match as close to the first fret as possible for the lightest possible feel. And we don't have to worry about the angle at the bridge end since we don't play past the 24th fret and there the angles aren't much different to that on the 5th fret.

[mistermikev]

2 hours ago, Bizman62 said:

That's close to what Mr. Rosa says, for the same reason he says that the material of the nut doesn't affect the sound on a pressed string. And my logic has nothing against that.

That's interesting and I can sort of figure out why it's so. A string is a straight line between the nut and saddle but when you press it there's an angle in both directions. If the neck is dead straight and the action is the same all along the fretboard, the spot where the angles are identical is at the 12th fret, right in the middle. The steeper the angle, the harder it is to press the string down. Thus we make the nut end much lower, trying to get the angles match as close to the first fret as possible for the lightest possible feel. And we don't have to worry about the angle at the bridge end since we don't play past the 24th fret and there the angles aren't much different to that on the 5th fret.

a nice illustration and all good thoughts there. 

thinking about it... I think that once you have a perfectly level fretboard... and a perfect arc once you add relief... if a string is going to buzz (not fret buzz but more string rattle) it's most likely to do so at the 1st and last frets.  we often add fall away for the last frets... so that leaves the first fret as the most likely candidate... so by raising the nut... you can lower the bridge... and end up with the sm height over that first fret, but a lower height over everything else... if that makes any sense. 

for the record I'm not at all saying "this is the way all guitars should be done", just more an alternative to the more established convention.

[Bizman62]

You're right about the arch and fall away and for potential future readers it's good that you mentioned them. I didn't draw it since I wanted to focus on just the angle when a string is pressed. But they indeed belong to the recipe for a low action without buzz.

[curtisa]

On 12/16/2021 at 4:08 AM, mistermikev said:

this got delivered to kevin yesterday.  he was complimentary of the looks, and then had a few detailed comments. I will take away from it opportunities to improve

Feedback that was less than you expected is always a bit of a challenge to accept, but the best you can do in this case is make good where you can and use that information to raise the bar on your next build. If you put enough of your work out in the open you'll invariably have to come up against it. Your honesty, willingness to listen to it and act upon it will go a long way to making sure your work remains of a high calibre.

Regarding the comments about the control layout, maybe all that was required was a printed 'cheat sheet' bundled with the guitar. As the builder what might seem obvious to us may not be apparent to the customer, especially with unfamiliar terms such as 'parallel cross pattern' or 'series stacks'. If it looked like a Tele, smelt like a Tele and felt like a Tele, he might've been expecting the controls to operate like a Tele as well.

 

1 hour ago, mistermikev said:

so by raising the nut... you can lower the bridge... and end up with the sm height over that first fret, but a lower height over everything else... if that makes any sense.

Unless you need extra height at the nut for slide playing there is absolutely no reason to make the nut higher. Raising the nut height introduces intonation errors in the lower frets that cannot be compensated out at the saddles. In theory the nut height relative to the first fret shouldn't be any higher than the second fret height relative to the third (and 3rd vs 4th, and 4th vs 5th, and so on and so on...). In practice it can afford to be a little higher due to the way the neck curves and the strings vibrate in the open position, but not excessively.

Also a good reason to look in to zero frets

[mistermikev]

9 minutes ago, curtisa said:

Feedback that was less than you expected is always a bit of a challenge to accept, but the best you can do in this case is make good where you can and use that information to raise the bar on your next build. If you put enough of your work out in the open you'll invariably have to come up against it. Your honesty, willingness to listen to it and act upon it will go a long way to making sure your work remains of a high calibre.

Regarding the comments about the control layout, maybe all that was required was a printed 'cheat sheet' bundled with the guitar. As the builder what might seem obvious to us may not be apparent to the customer, especially with unfamiliar terms such as 'parallel cross pattern' or 'series stacks'. If it looked like a Tele, smelt like a Tele and felt like a Tele, he might've been expecting the controls to operate like a Tele as well.

 

Unless you need extra height at the nut for slide playing there is absolutely no reason to make the nut higher. Raising the nut height introduces intonation errors in the lower frets that cannot be compensated out at the saddles. In theory the nut height relative to the first fret shouldn't be any higher than the second fret height relative to the third (and 3rd vs 4th, and 4th vs 5th, and so on and so on...). In practice it can afford to be a little higher due to the way the neck curves and the strings vibrate in the open position, but not excessively.

Also a good reason to look in to zero frets

well it is certainly an experience - having your work under a microscope.  I think... just hearing "it's good" really tells  you nothing because, of course someone would say that.  having someone dig in and be critical is an opportunity to get better and much more useful... but admittedly not exactly easy to take... but an opportunity all the sm.  

controls, I actually meant to print out a card and put it in the cavity... but forgot amongst my excitement to get it to him quick.  We had spoken at length about it... and I even showed my diagram... but then when you sit down with it all that goes out the window.  

afa nut height... we're not talking about anything anywhere near the height for playing slide.  In my last post... I was pointing out that in fact raising the nut would allow me to lower the bridge to the point where the height over the first fret would end up being the same distance.  This is not an amount that would cause any intonnation issue.  a very subtle difference, in fact a difference proportional to the difference in height of the 1st fret vs 2nd vs 3rd frets - as these frets pull further away from the strings.  that "little higher" you are talking about is exactly what I mean.  If you do that... it allows you to lower the bridge saddles moreso than cutting the nut to the exact MINIMUM height you could go.  Comparing the two... A) (min height) results in really low action 1-7 but higher as you go up frets... B ) (little higher) results in higher action 1-7 but lower action around 12-15.  

[mistermikev]

57 minutes ago, Bizman62 said:

You're right about the arch and fall away and for potential future readers it's good that you mentioned them. I didn't draw it since I wanted to focus on just the angle when a string is pressed. But they indeed belong to the recipe for a low action without buzz.

well thanks for saying so altho admittedly I think I was saying it for my own benefit!