Jump to content

Recommended Posts

Some progress. So I managed to plain both sides flat, had some mishaps with the router so it left burnmarks, but that's not an issue since front and back will be plastered in 5mm thick olive.

b7ekPXP.jpg

Drew the outlines and went in, first with the jig saw then router... so the rough shape is now done.

nphYukA.jpg

Next steps: get some of the contours in (just lightly, that I can still bend the olive around them), glue the olive boards on top and bottom, get into final shape body wise, glue on fretboard, shape neck etc... happy I'm finally finding time for this build, I'm really excited about this build.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 54
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Posts

For exactly one note. And its octave if you really want to stretch the theory a bit more. As soon as you fret an F, F#, G etc, placing the pickup at the 24th fret location to specifically chase that o

Here is the roughest plan of the black/purple build with golden hardware, created entirely in paint, so excuse that haha. It will be a necktrough, and the core will be made from 5 laminated strips of

Well, if it turns out sounding like crap, the three of us will learn something about pickup positions and how a bbq tastes when you use bamboo and purpleheart as firewood... it's all good, that's why

Posted Images

Found the seymour duncan forum post while researching this, thanks for the other two. Conclusion is, should be good. :) 

Link to post
Share on other sites

So I had this idea I'll make the horns wedge shaped before gluing on the top/backside. So then, when it's all glued up and I do the final shape, I get small boomerang like shapes at the tips. So this is how I made the horn:

xUD1AFQ.jpg

The side where the red arrow is pointing is obviously slimmer than the side where the blue arrow is pointing... so after gluing on the olive boards and getting it to final shape, it looks roughly like this:

x1LUYar.jpg

This was rasp + grit 80 sanding... I'll do the final shape with finer grit sanding paper so the "boomerang" part where the purpleheart is coming through should get 10% bigger. So far super happy with how it's coming along, but steaming/bending olive is not fun, even tho it's just 5.5mm thick. Never doing this again, and I still have one more board on the front to do, and all three on the backside. Fun times.

2VF20nl.jpg

This is the third board for the front side that has to be cut in shape, bent and glued on. Will probably do that today and then from thursday on the backside. Hope by sunday I have everything glued up, trimmed, so I can do final body shape and start putting this thing together the week after.

Still super excited for this, but also exhausted haha.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Interesting build, a lot of effort going into this and you seem to have a good attitude!

I noticed earlier you were contemplating whether to have 22, 23 or 24 frets. One of my builds has 23 frets and I find it very confusing while playing, so I'd recommend 22 or 24. In regard to the pickup being on the 2nd octave node I experimented with it extensively and found it does make a difference, but its one of those things that you hear a great difference one day and another you don't. And it seems to have more effect on some guitars than others

I've heard some people get wound up about a neck pickup not being on the node with a 24 fret guitar. My experience is it does make a bit of difference but if you want 24 frets just go with it. Having the pu on the node makes a bit of difference at the open string and the 12th fret, but for the rest of the fretboard its neither here nor there. A few of the guitars I've made have great long channels due to the experiments I did and now I wish I had just left them alone

I have never been able to find a way to explain the 2nd octave node thing in a nutshell but consider this. As you play up the fretboard (regardless of position) the pickup becomes closer to the antinode of the fundamental

Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Crusader said:

I have never been able to find a way to explain the 2nd octave node thing in a nutshell but consider this. As you play up the fretboard (regardless of position) the pickup becomes closer to the antinode of the fundamental

I've seen it somewhere and it was so simply put that even I could understand the idea. But don't ask me to tell you how it works! Very simplified, if you measure halfways the scale you'll end up at the 12th fret where there's a node. And if you measure halfways between the 12th fret and the bridge, you'll end up at the 24th or the neck pickup location where there's another node. Or are they antinodes? Anyhow, if you think about a looong skipping rope and then cut it in half and cut the half in half, the bridge pu location is where the hand of the rope swinger would be.

kuva.png.d3603c7ee93edd55d3074f98bbcb30d4.png

Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Crusader said:

Interesting build, a lot of effort going into this and you seem to have a good attitude!

I noticed earlier you were contemplating whether to have 22, 23 or 24 frets. One of my builds has 23 frets and I find it very confusing while playing, so I'd recommend 22 or 24. In regard to the pickup being on the 2nd octave node I experimented with it extensively and found it does make a difference, but its one of those things that you hear a great difference one day and another you don't. And it seems to have more effect on some guitars than others

I've heard some people get wound up about a neck pickup not being on the node with a 24 fret guitar. My experience is it does make a bit of difference but if you want 24 frets just go with it. Having the pu on the node makes a bit of difference at the open string and the 12th fret, but for the rest of the fretboard its neither here nor there. A few of the guitars I've made have great long channels due to the experiments I did and now I wish I had just left them alone

I have never been able to find a way to explain the 2nd octave node thing in a nutshell but consider this. As you play up the fretboard (regardless of position) the pickup becomes closer to the antinode of the fundamental

Yeah, was looking into 23, but dismissed that idea rather fast. It was between 22 and 24 frets. In the end it'll be 24 frets, neck pickup as close as possible to the fretboard, everything else will be either attributed or blamed on the core made from tonegrass, we will see what direction it goes tone wise :D 

@Bizman62 yeah, the physics behind strings vibrating is rather fun, here's a good one on that topic: 

Strobe Lights and String - Standing Waves - YouTube

We did something similar in high school, good times.

Link to post
Share on other sites

have often thought about a pickup that would be part of the fretboard at the 22nd fret or perhaps a pickup that had frets built into it (obviously they'd have to be adjustable to work).  I love 24 fret guitars... but there is no question the sound difference from a guitar with the pickup positioned right where that would be.  guitars w 24 frets don't get that bass sweetness you hear in a les paul or strat on the neck pos.  Not a bad sound on a 24... just different and maybe "not as different" from the bridge when on a 24 fret.  that said, it's not a difference that would keep me from doing 24 frets if the guitar called for it.  

I think bizmans' pick above can be simplified even more: string rings the most at it's halfway point... the closer you are to that... the louder it's going to be.

Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, mistermikev said:

I think bizmans' pick above can be simplified even more: string rings the most at it's halfway point... the closer you are to that... the louder it's going to be.

Wouldn't that mean that the loudest location for a pickup would be at the 12th fret? As it shows in the image, there's a spot where half of the string length is at the largest while at the same time a quarter of the same string is standing still. Which one is node and which antinode, I can't remember. Anyhow, the point is that in such a place one harmonic is strong and another harmonic is muted which explains why the neck pickup on a 22 fret guitar sounds different to that pushed one inch towards the bridge on a 24 fret one.

Link to post
Share on other sites

So if I remember my audio transmission classes well, let's say open E2 frequency is 82.41 Hz. That means we also have the following harmonics: 164.82 Hz, 247.23 Hz, 324.64 Hz etc..

So if I place the pickup exactly at the 24th fret, I will get (if I do a spectral analysis) high peeks at 82.41 and 164.82 Hz, a good bunch of 247.23 Hz and almost none of the 324.64 Hz harmonic (in theory it would be none, but in that theory the pickup would be a dot in space and not an actual pickup). So with me moving away from the 24th fret spot towards the bridge, the more I go towards the bridge the more of the 324.64 Hz harmonic I'll start picking up and less of the fat low frequencies (hence the sharper and not "bluessy" sounds).

So that's the theory, my question was more aimed towards... did someone actually try it in a HSS configuration, how did they like it, and sound comparisons of similar builds (preferably same pickups just 22 vs 24 frets). But yeah, with all the input from this thread, I'm going 24 frets. When it's all done I might make a jig so I'm able to mount the pickup on the top side of the strings and move around, so we can get some audio samples when it's placed above the 24th fret compared to where its final resting place will be :) 

Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Bizman62 said:

Wouldn't that mean that the loudest location for a pickup would be at the 12th fret? As it shows in the image, there's a spot where half of the string length is at the largest while at the same time a quarter of the same string is standing still. Which one is node and which antinode, I can't remember. Anyhow, the point is that in such a place one harmonic is strong and another harmonic is muted which explains why the neck pickup on a 22 fret guitar sounds different to that pushed one inch towards the bridge on a 24 fret one.

yes,

"If a stretched wire fixed at both ends, or the string of a musical instrument, is plucked at the centre, it will vibrate in the mode shown in Fig. 90. This is the simplest form of vibration, and consists of a single loop" ... "The mid-point of the wire vibrates through the greatest distance; such a point is called an antinode"

now the if here says if it is plucked at center.  who knows how it is effected if we pluck somewhere else... but the one thing we do know is it is most pliable at center.  and this is why we put in relief. The harmonic 'cancelation' is likely also a factor... I'm not trying to argue which factor contributes more to the the 'tone' of the 24th fret... but if you look at bass guitars it complicates this further.  Bass players have long preferred the position of the 'p bass' ie "the sweet spot" which doesn't appear to match up to those harmonic hot spots.  further bass players tend to pluck in that spot.  So... perhaps it's a bit more complicated than just the harmonics... perhaps I've opened a can of worms... we can dig in.  on a les paul there is a humbucker in that position... while the dominent coil is approx at the 24 one could argue that the best placement would then be somewhere just beyond the 24th dependent on where the pickup is going to pickup the most amount of sound(one would think somewhere between the two coils but closer to the neck coil).  further, pickups were designed to 'amplify' the sound... it would make sense that they are after the most volume but perhaps not.  

Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Gogzs said:

So if I place the pickup exactly at the 24th fret, I will get (if I do a spectral analysis) high peeks at 82.41 and 164.82 Hz, a good bunch of 247.23 Hz and almost none of the 324.64 Hz harmonic (in theory it would be none, but in that theory the pickup would be a dot in space and not an actual pickup). So with me moving away from the 24th fret spot towards the bridge, the more I go towards the bridge the more of the 324.64 Hz harmonic I'll start picking up and less of the fat low frequencies (hence the sharper and not "bluessy" sounds)

For exactly one note. And its octave if you really want to stretch the theory a bit more. As soon as you fret an F, F#, G etc, placing the pickup at the 24th fret location to specifically chase that one harmonic node ceases to have any relevance to the note you've just fretted.

@Bizman62s graphic simplifies the motion of a plucked string to make it easy to visualise how a sinusoidal waveform can be broken down into its harmonic components, but that's not how a plucked string moves in real life. It's true that moving the pickup closer to the 24th allows more of the lower-order harmonics to be captured which in turn translates to a warmer sound, but don't fall into the trap of assuming that the 24th position is the harmonically optimal spot to place it. It's physically and practically meaningless in a fretted instrument.

You put the pickup where you want it because you like the sound of the result, not because it is mathematically correct.

  • Like 4
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, curtisa said:

For exactly one note. And its octave if you really want to stretch the theory a bit more. As soon as you fret an F, F#, G etc, placing the pickup at the 24th fret location to specifically chase that one harmonic node ceases to have any relevance to the note you've just fretted.

@Bizman62s graphic simplifies the motion of a plucked string to make it easy to visualise how a sinusoidal waveform can be broken down into its harmonic components, but that's not how a plucked string moves in real life. It's true that moving the pickup closer to the 24th allows more of the lower-order harmonics to be captured which in turn translates to a warmer sound, but don't fall into the trap of assuming that the 24th position is the harmonically optimal spot to place it. It's physically and practically meaningless in a fretted instrument.

You put the pickup where you want it because you like the sound of the result, not because it is mathematically correct.

brought a lot of clarity to that argument.  thanks for that.  not to beat a dead horse... but the other thing I was thinking... is that we know that when volume is lowered the perception of bass freq drops off faster than others hence the treble bleed circuits and the common 'more bass' option for amps like my marshal.  so by chasing vol we are in turn chasing bass it would seem.  that said.... I wonder at what fret would be "too much bass".

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/13/2021 at 7:38 PM, curtisa said:

You put the pickup where you want it because you like the sound of the result, not because it is mathematically correct.

Very well put! And by the way the main point of my comment was to not change your mind afterward and butcher your guitar changing the pickup's position. My experience is that a pickup on the 2nd octave node has merit and one that is closer to the bridge also has merit, just a different kind. There have always been guitars with the neck pickup away from the node but it just seems that when tons of guitars with 24 frets started coming out that it became an issue

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/13/2021 at 2:15 PM, Bizman62 said:

Wouldn't that mean that the loudest location for a pickup would be at the 12th fret?

I think that would be correct but there would be too much travel in the string for the pickups to cope with and the top and low E's would go beyond the magnetic field...perhaps? I also think the sound would be too "wooly" too warm. I'm pretty sure there are people who have experimented with this. By the way the twin-neck Gibson SG's have the neck pickup further forward and the back coil is on the second octave node, which results in them having only 20 frets!

Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Crusader said:

I also think the sound would be too "wooly" too warm. I'm pretty sure there are people who have experimented with this

You'd also have a pickup that gave diminishing output as you approached the 12th fret and almost no output for every fret after it.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Both Olive and Purpleheart are arrogantly stubborn and difficult woods to work with.

Better you than me, I've been down those roads and have no thoughts of a repeat journey.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 2 weeks later...
On 5/15/2021 at 4:49 AM, Drak said:

Better you than me,

I'm starting to see what you mean haha... the combination of tricky wood, an overengineered laminated design and lack of time are resulting in this build just not wanting to be built. But I made progress this weekend finally... topside horns are shaped, all olive boards are glued on and trimmed. Next step will be routing the pickup holes (I wanna do that before gluing on the fretboard). I have to thin the body a bit (roughly 2 mm) and then get on with gluing the backside olive. 

But when I see it like this now, I really can't wait for all this to be put together. 

22xmWA5.jpg

When I do the final contouring, some more purpleheart should surface. Specially where the arm is resting, and a little around the bottom edges. Still thinking if I should do gloss or satin on the top. Did some test pieces, booth look good, gloss maybe a tad better, but satin just feels so nice. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Love the black hardware with the Olive, looks great.

I've been using a lot of black hardware in recent years, I really like it.

And the Purpleheart as accent pieces too, really nice touch.

I used to like Purpleheart, but now I don't care for it except, as you've done, as accent pieces.

Using it like that, its excellent to accent something else, but I don't really care for it as a standalone centerpiece wood anymore.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Electronics/battery cavity is done and 1/3 of the olive boards on the backside is now clamped up and I'm waiting for the glue to dry. One of the more tricky build steps is now also completed. Last time I spend 5+ hours on this, I learned my lesson so I made a proper jig for drilling, With rough hand sanding, it took me roughly 50 minutes this time, but insanely happy with the result.

CzhTcZk.jpg

Only thing I'm now missing is the blade switch slot, and I have no damn idea how to get that clean and straight. Will try to figure out tomorrow on some test pieces. Got some ideas but not sure what will work and what won't. If someone knows a fool proof way to get it nice, clean and straight, let me know and I'll let you know if it's really fool proof :D 

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

Is your switch slot going on a flat piece, or a carved piece?

If flat, I do them all the time with total success, so I'd call my way foolproof.

sMBT4zt.jpg

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

To make @Drak's method even more fool proof, drill holes to either end, then align your router to match the holes. That way you won't go too far. A box type jig that'd prevent from routing too long a slot would do the same without having to worry about making the end holes match. A simple rectangular hole in a board, snug one way and the length of the switch wider than the router base.

kuva.png.b577d80f60a1b074c18cb18a322ef7e0.png

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
52 minutes ago, Bizman62 said:

To make @Drak's method even more fool proof, drill holes to either end, then align your router to match the holes. That way you won't go too far. A box type jig that'd prevent from routing too long a slot would do the same without having to worry about making the end holes match. A simple rectangular hole in a board, snug one way and the length of the switch wider than the router base.

That's exactly how I already do it. You just can't see the holes at either end.

You don't need to make any jigs to do it, waste of time.

That's exactly how you line up the square perpendicular to the holes in the first place.

By dropping the dremel bit into each hole (already drilled first) and adjusting the square incrementally until its matched.

Then draw a line next to the square as a guide, then clamp it or tape it in place.

As I said...already foolproof. ūüėá

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

NkVSb1v.jpg

Really satisfied with how this turned out, a little sanding to get out the "burn" marks around the ends out, but otherwise looks good. Thanks both of you for the advices, in the end I just used a ruler with the router, held it firmly so it doesn't wobble, no jigs otherwise. 

Got the headstock done as well, otherwise not much time this weekend for this build. Hope I get the pickup cavities done this week. Then glue on the fretboard and do the final body contouring.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...