Tubes

[daveq]

OK, here goes a touchy subject:

In your experience, are tube amps worth the hype they get? Maybe hype isn't the best word - are they as good as so many people claim they are?

I have a Marshall combo amp (Valvestate) and am pretty happy with it. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think it has one tube in the preamp section and is solid-state in the power amp section. I like the distortion channel and the clean is great also. That's my experience with tube amps (although mine isn't a true tube amp).

Now, I've been reading that tube amps require replacement of tubes by a professional. I don't know how often that needs to be done though? I play about 2 hrs a day on average I guess - at moderate volume levels.

The reason I'm asking is that I'm thinking about upgrading my amp to something with a little more power. I play mostly hard rock/metal (lynch/satriani/vai/...) but occasionally get into slower / clean channel stuff also. When I do get a chance to play loudly, I feel like my amp is really struggling.

So, I've read some reviews on harmonycentral and of course, I'm now thoroughly confused. Is there a general rule of thumb that says solid-state is better for metal/hard rock or the other way around? Are tube amps difficult to maintain?

Sorry for the long post - I wanted to try to explain where I'm comming from on this.

DaveQ

[MzI]

i started out on a valvestate vs100rh head, it was alright, i eventually got a marshall guvnor pedal and i started disliking the amp more and more, now i have a mesa single rectifier head, i absolutely love it and will never go back to solid state amps again, even at lower volumes the thing is great, as for the clean channel, its missing the reverb from the valvestate so i think im gonna go buy a chorus pedal to make up for it, but overall the clean channel sounds awesome, just as good as the valvestate without the reverb,

for tubes im really not sure, i just got the thing and i rarely play it cuz i cant bring it to school so id say they are gonna last awhile, what ive heard tho is with moderate playin tubes should be changed once a year, someone correct me if im wrong there, as far as someone professionaly needing to do it i think that you only need to have it done professionally when you change the tube kind and it needs to be rebiased

MzI

[lovekraft]

Do tube amps sound different? Yes, particularly to the guy playing - tube amps respond differently to pick attack, guitar volume, etc., changing the way you alter your sound by playing differently. The most common gripe I've heard from pro guitarists about digital modellers is that they don't have the "feel" of a real tube amp.

Are they worth the extra money and maintenance? Up to you - I love the sound enough to put up with the inherent reliability problems and extra weight, but you may not. Power tubes should generally be replaced after about a year of constant use, and preamp tubes probably every two or three years.

Is anybody in the audience going to know the difference? Probably not, unless he or she is a tone geek, particularly if you're playing metal unmiked. But that's just my take on it - and don't forget that there are just as many guys out there with abysmal guitar tones using tube amps, so it's not an instant fix. You still have to learn how to play the amp, regardless of whether it's tube, solid state or digital.

[bigdguitars]

I go back and forth. i have a lot of custom rigged tubes amps that I built. Bassman and champ clones and a pod 2. Tubes can be finky. but for clean sound I would rather run my tube amps than the pod.

If you play a lot and gig your gear, I would go with solid state, if you are at home and recording go with tubes.... IMO.

Its all about dialing in your tone, for some reason my buddy has a fender practice amp that rocks... I love the sound of it and its a 99 amp, go figure.

[rob]

I just got home from playing a gig with my sounds city 50 amp. It totaly blew away the other amp there, which was a solid state marshall mg 100dfx. It was louder, and it didn't have the annoying "wall of noise" sound to it, it just cut through and you could still hear all the notes blaring out. I think its deffenatly worth it, even when I am playing at home with the vol on 0.5, to me, it sounds way better than any solid state amp. The maintence is as hard as you make it IMO, if you keep the amp biased and change the power tubes every year or 2, you won't mind it. as for them being heavy, I don't think that they are that heavy. I mean a solid state amp of the same size, is gonna feel roughly the same, and so what if it weighs more, at the most I would expect about 100 meters to the car, and maybe 1 or 2 flights of stairs, surely you can handle that! to me, any tube amp = better than no tube amp!

[daveq]

Thanks for the info. I've been reading some more reviews and have found that the Peavey XXX seems to get great marks all around. It's almost half the price of the Marshall I was considering. Has anyone here tried the XXX?

I was at a guitar clinic recently (the Lynch clinic in April) and he was playing through a XXX and it sounded great to me. He's actually comming out with an ultra-expensive amp soon - the Peavey Brahma. I'd love to check that out but since the price is projected to be between 3 and 4 thousand - it's not even a possibility.

I guess I need to go out and start plugging in now. If anyone has opinions on the various heads in my price range (~$1000 - $1200 for the amp only - I'll deal with the cabinet separately) please pass them along. Keep in mind that I'm after a killer distortion and don't need much else. A good clean channel is always appreciated but I spend much more time in the dirt.

I'm also hoping to hear from Derek and others on their amps by Ansil. I'd love to give the business to a fellow PG member if possible.

Thanks again,

DaveQ

Edited October 8, 2004 by daveq

[westhemann]

i prefer tube sound...but my mode 4 is pretty kick ass(one 12ax7 all by it's lonesome)it sounds just like a jcm800 to me(the way i have it tweaked)

but i use a pedal for distortion.

the crate blue voodoo has a nice metal distortion...early metallicaesque kind of attack oriented gain

[kenneth_b]

I don't think the tube vice solid state is an either or. The amp is just one link in the tone chain.

I'm not a metal player, or enthusiast, I play and listen to jazz. Kenny Burelll is known for his tone, and I've seen him live with several different amps. Oddly enough, I couldn't hear the difference. I'm assuming because so much of his tone comes from his archtop and from his attack.

I have a blackface Fender Deluxe Reverb, with an Eminence speaker, a Yamaha g100 solid state amp, and a cheapo Kustom 16R practice amp. I like the Fender tone, but the tubes are shot and the amp needs some tlc. I've been looking around at new amps and here's what I think of the tube v. ss choices:

Tubes Pro:

Plenty of amps with the tones I like (jazz, remember). Mesa, Victorria, Ampeg, Fender, Peavey, etc.

Most of the players I like are using tubes, with the exception of Mike Stern, Jimmy Bruno, and a couple of others.

Tubes Con:

Fragile.

Heavy. Sure, in the suburbs you might only go from parking lot to the gig. But, in the city, you might have to ride the bus or take a cab. I used to play with a stand-up base player in San Francisco and on the bus he was no man's friend.

Hassle. Do I really want to change my tubes every couple of years. Is anyone else unhappy with the choice of Russian, Chinese, or NOS tubes? Where the heck should I buy the tubes?

SS Pros

Lighter.

Reliable.

No warmup.

SS Con:

Lot's of ss amps sound like hell.

The ss amps I do like have twenty bazillion modeling options, which someone might like, but I'd never use.

At the end of the day, I'll probably keep my Fender. When my kids get big enough for me to get back out, I'll buy (or build!) a small ss amp. Probably a Polytone, Evans, or a Tech21.

Audio equipment in general, and especially guitar amps, are surrounded by myth and legend. I do believe that tubes are over hyped, but that has driven the amp makers to produce more tube amps in response to the hype. I don't really think I've helped you make a choice.

[Shaggy]

my next amp will probably be solid state too, i think the whole tube hype is just lots of edit, and solid states are easier to keep a clean tone opposed to vacuumtubes who start saturnating if you play loud.

I think its a shame that amp builders seem to be ashamed of their ss amps, they allways claim to have ss amps that sound like tube amps. I just want a amp that is not ashamed for what he is, with a really fuzzy overdrive just like transistor produce, not some fake smoothness, if i want smooth overdrive i just as well buy an overdrive pedal(many owners of a tube amp buy "tubelike" overdrive pedals too, which seems kind of retarded to me).

[BLS]

Yes.

Its all personal taste but to me Solid State amps just lack warmth. Once go tube, you'll never go back.

[StratDudeDan]

i used to play through my friend's Orange head w/ a Crate 2x12" cab. i really liked the sound i got for jazz/blues, and completely LOVED it for rock.

however, i recently got an old Fender Ultrachorus solid state amp running, 130w bi-amped, 2x12", and i don't think i will ever go back. in fact, i already "sold" the head to my friend in exchange for the amp, just not "definitely." we might trade every now and then, etc.

to me, just hearing the word "tube" is like hearing the words "High Definition" when you're buying a TV. yes, it really could be, but sometimes, there's a little digital TV out there that looks just as good, is way the hell cheaper, and fits better. yes, you might be missing out on something that really is better, but at the same time, if you can do the same job at 95% effeciency instead of 100%, and save a crapload of money while doing it, go for it.

as for modelling, avoid that at all costs. modelling amps are the devil.

[soapbarstrat]

There are good tube and solid state amps and there are lousy tube and solid state amps.

Playing a tube amp at low volume is a lot like playing a tube pre-amp through a solid state power amp.

I've noticed sometimes that a solid state amp can add something interesting to your sound that a tube amp can't do. I've also had such a great complex clean sound from the little tube amp I built from scrap parts , that no solid state amp could ever get, so far, as far as I know.

It was probably from the amp being a single power tube, class A design.

I didn't get that sound from class a/b push-pull tube amps.

Speakers are just as important, maybe even more important than tubes vs solid state. I say this because for a while I was running a hughes & Kettner 'metal shredder' into a mini marshall 1x10 celestion cab and it was fun to play .

I also ran a Gorilla amp into a 2x12 celestion vintage 30 Fender cab and got a sound that would slap the hell out of any death metal fan

( maybe an alesis quadraverb was also part of the sound, can't remember).

It's also been said that pre-amp tube distortion is no better than solid state distortion as far as when they speak of the " tube feel". It's supposed to be the power tubes that cause all that " tube feel" stuff.

It's interesting that many guitarist say tubes are king, yet they are still always searching for a better sound.

Some great sounding solid state amps I've heard pro's use:

Ty Tabor of 'King's X' . He used a Lab series amp on the early records.

I think John Fogerty used a solid state Kustom amp. If that's what was used for that " senators son" song, that's one great sounding SS amp.

I once played some Fender SS amp in the early 90's that sounded very good, even with the stock speaker that was in it. Who knows how great it might have sounded with another speaker ?

[Jivin]

I run my GT6 into a 100w Kustom solid state combo amp (which in my opinion is very high quality, parts wise) and its great for anything I do. There may well be much nicer amps out there that are all tube or whatever, but I just can't justify the thousands and thousands of dollars. For the time being im totally an effects guy though... I have all my sounds customised to my amp programmed into my gt6 and thats the way I work, and im the first to admit that without the GT6, the distortion on my kustom is really weak, but thats life

[Shaggy]

my selfbuild guitar sounds so much better than my other, it can sound really warm but then again its does not dull too. On the other hand, i can give a really country like tone. Its just great, but its a damn ugly guitar and it doesent play well at all, o well, get used to it.

i just want to say: its not allways the amp that makes you sound good, the amp is just a small part of many small parts that make the sound

Edited October 10, 2004 by Shaggy

[elburromjf]

You gotta go for what suits your purpose. I plug any one of my guitars into a Zoom GFX-5, pick a preset, tweak if necessary and go right into a mixer. Because almost all of my recorded work is meant to be ambient (documentary soundtracks for starving media arts students), I can live with amp simulators in an entiely solid-state world. If I was going to gig regularly, maybe I'd see it differently. For those rare occasions where we do live ambient music, I use an old Gorilla solid state that I've had for years and I run the GFX-5 into that. Its about personal taste, convenience and budget if you ask me.

EB

[Scott Rosenberger]

Before you make you descision, try to check out an Egnater TOL 100 Head. You can pick them up used for around $700 to $1000. The Rocktron version is very good as well.

It's a 4 channel Head that goes from

Channel 1 Fender Twin Clean

Channel 2 Hot Rodded Fender (Think SRV)

Channel 3 Pure Van Halen Brown Sound

Channel 4 "Useable" High Gain Not Muddy

[krazyderek]

the main thing i noticed when i got my carvin tube head was how much more thicker it was compared to both of my any ss amps, miles more bottom end... and with a little tweaking i could adjust for as much or as little sizzle and crispiness as i wanted.. where most SS amps have this horrible circuit board fizz once you try to push the amp. Basily, just way more power where it counts...

[GuitarMaestro]

For the music you want to play (Lynch/Vai/Satriani) and metal in general you have to do yourself the favor and buy a good tube amp. Granted there are also tube amps that sound worse then good solid state amps. But if you want real warm but still defined and powerfull sounding distortion then buy a tube head. For your style I recommend to check out the Peavey 5150, Triple XXX and that new Satriani Signature amp. I have been through so many amps, mainly marshall and since the day I bought my 5150 half stack I never ever thought about my tone again. It simply gives me everything I need and is a joy to play everytime I plug in. Additionally I do alot of studio/recording work and the sound engineers and mixing/mastering guys are always impressed by my guitar sound on records.

Although check out Soldano and Engl amps.

[Saber]

Ironically, according to his guitar tech, Satriani only used the clean channel of his Marshall. The distortion came from his (modded) Boss DS-1 pedal! I wonder what the deal is with his new signature amp.

Edited October 11, 2004 by Saber

[daveq]

Thanks again for the replies.

I've been reading about the Peavey XXX and 5150. The XXX seems to get great reviews and the 5150 also gets good grades. I guess I'll have to try them out but if anyone already has and wants to pass along the difference between the two (the sound difference) - I'd be very interested.

I also checked into a Marshall JCM2000 but the reviews I've read are all over the place (some people love it, some think it's a huge waste of money). Does anyone here own one of these?

[Librero]

I read in a guitar.com interview that Satch has pretty much abandoned his DS-1 at this point with his own signature amp. Better read it again to be sure.

[daveq]

Thanks again for your opinions (and for not letting this one turn into a big 'ol fight )

Now, I think I just have one more question on this topic:

Which tubes are supposed to sound the best? The amps that I'm considering use 12AX7's in the preamp/effects loop and 6L6GC's in the power stage. I've noticed that the XXX has the ability to use EL34's with an external bias adjustment. Are there significant differences between the EL34's and the 6L6GC's?

From what I have read, it sounds like even within the 6L6GC type, different manufacturers may have a different sound. So, if this is true, is there a "best" sounding manufacturer/model?

If the differences are subtle, just let me know and I'll stop concentrating on this stuff.

Thanks,

Dave

[Gorecki]

This is surely an opinion preference query, yes the EL34 and 6L6 are different and the simplest of contrasts is the 6L6 will stay clean longer then the EL34 due to their higher wattage rating.

The 12AX7 is pretty much the industry standard for pre-amp tubes, very little variance on that.

Now for tube vendors. Plain old Sylvania tubes we're pretty much intended for televisions and the like. The moment some like that is replaced with a matched set from someone like Groove Tubes (my preference) or Boogies...etc, the difference in sound is HUGE!

Also, the plain old Sylvania tubes don't last very long and though the matched guitar tube venders sound will change a bit in time, they tend to last a very long time.

My 1 1/2 cents.

[GuitarMaestro]

If the differences are subtle, just let me know and I'll stop concentrating on this stuff.

The difference is neglegible in your buying process. True you definately hear the difference and it can make a difference if you change a bad set of tubes to a nice matched quad like Gorecki said. And it is true as well that EL34 break up earilier.

BUT in the process of deciding on an amp you can forget about it. I would say the basic sound of the amp makes about 98% of it's tone and a change of tubes only changes these last 2 percent. Additionally you can mod any 6L6 amp to use EL34's. A 5150 always sounds like a 5150 and a change of tubes can only be heard by a long time 5150 player who REALLY knows it's sound in every detail. So forget about tubes and buy the amp that sounds the way you like it.

Concerning the JCM2000: You gotta play one to decide. I have owned several tube marshalls and played the JCM2000 alot and I simply am sick of the Marshall sound. I don't like that bristish harsh and brittle distortion anymore. I became a fan of Peaveys fat and smooth sounding distortion.

Additionally I can tell you that Marshall's quality is very bad nowadays. I had a 6101 which has drop outs and sounds strange despite several tube changes and repairs. Then a friend of me bought a new JCM2000....the screws inside were not even tightened correctly or held in place with a little glue or something and after weeks of use the first screw fell into the printboard and only through luck it did not damage anything. Some months later the effect loop ceased to work at all. Then I know someone with a another 6101 where the whole midi switching system died as the amp was quite new. I cannot speak for all Marshalls but I cann tell you that Marshalls quality doesn't live up to it's reputation anymore at least for me and the musicians I know of....

Good luck deciding and definately don't listen to peoples opinions too much and just check out all the amps you are interested in. One VERY important note though:

Always check which Box you are playing through. My 5150 for example sounds very Marshall-like and harsh if played through a Marshall Box instead of the Peavey 5150 box. I would always try to play the amp in question through the matching box.

[Jivin]

I heard someone mention the satriani signature head? I have to admit, I was reading about that one (assuming its hte Peavey JSX head) and it sounded mighty good! I might even go out of my way to try and have a play with one