Tone -- It's Not Always Really Real.

[GregP]

I find that as a whole, we are an obsessed lot, myself included. And I don't just mean Project Guitarists, but all guitarists that I know. But here's something funny--

I'm still never 100% happy with my tone, and I partially blame my lacklustre amplification and my mid-priced guitars. Surprisingly, the GDI21 that I bought is giving me the most tone satisfaction I've had in a while.

But a while ago a thought occurred to me, and so I've been listening carefully. That thought was that there's no way all the guitar tones in the songs I listen to can be what I would consider 'good' for myself. That would imply that every classic track and every band I like has a well-recorded and great-sounding guitar tone. There's no way.

So far, I've proven to myself that I'm right. Even more than I thought. Even guitarists who supposedly have great tone, I listen to them and think, "yuck, that just stinks. Mine's better than that." It's even worse for classic rock songs. Many of us worship the tones and purity of a strat or LP through a Marshall, or a Rick through a Vox... in theory. But you listen to a lot of those songs, and the guitarist's tone is actually quite crap. So why are we so quick to jump on the tone captured on each others' recordings (I'm thinking more about people on another forum I visit. You lot here are quite good about it all!) when some of the 'classics' are actually quite shoddy?

Example of great 'classic' tone: Slash in "Sweet Child O' Mine"

Example of crap recorded tone: Slash in "You Could Be Mine" <laff>

Seriously, though-- I don't have all the examples at the top of my head, but just try it out. Listen to the radio or go through your CD collection and you'll discover some truly poor tone.

Greg

[mutronboy]

Yeah Greg,,,

I keep thinkin'..'if I can get used to playin' 13 - 54's on my Strat, I'll get great tone like Stevie Ray'..

Then I realise that my favourite guitarist..with the best catalogue of tones...bar none, is Zappa...

And he used 08 - 39's !!.....go figure..

[El Dangerouso]

Couldn't agree more. I think golfers and guitar players are alike in their quest for "game improvement" or "ball flight" and "tone". Buy that magical club that when swung, will put the ball a mile down the fairway or on the green every time, flying under the wind. Of course, it would have a beautiful slight draw every time. Buy that guitar, amp, pre-amp or strings that when plugged in, turned on or tuned up will give you exactly what your ears want to hear. I think it all resides pretty much in your body and investment of time, not really dollars. Turn the knobs on what you have; spend some time going beyond the presets. Work on your technique. Practice, you have to dig "the secret" out of the dirt as Mr. Hogan would say. All that being said, I am very close to perfect with what I have. I have been questing after this soundclip on the Bogner page, I'm close and didn't have to buy a Bogner XTC. It took some tweaking of the knobs on the stuff that I did have and use of my ears. I think Eric Johnson has great tone, but I've done this experiment with the players/bands I really like. Most of the time I totally agree, I think their tone, taken in isolation, sounds like grunt.

[jer7440]

I find my quest for tone to be mired in ignorance. I just don't seem to have a clue of what components make up a tone I like. I have a digitech gnx3 with tons of amp models and effects,but it's almost overwhelming to try to figure it out.

[ToneMonkey]

I think that the bloke out of The Doves has a good view on this. I remember reading an interview with him and he was asked why he used a cheap Vantage acoustic. Vantage BTW are very cheap and the basis for my polished-turd-ocaster.

"I like the way it sounds" was the simple answer. Basically, your tone can be found in mysterious places, if it's on a POS then so be it. I've got a 3/4 size acoustic that I bought from the Argos warehouse shop (when i worked there) about 4 years ago. It really is shoddy and I've never changed the strings, but I just love the dead sounding twang that it gives. I'm sure most guitarists would hate it, but hey, it's my tone.

[Jehle]

Considering that what we hear in professional recordings has been compressed and EQ'd in a mix, I agree that an isolated guitar tone on a record is going to sound like crap. The guitar is designed to sit in the midrange in a mix, and most of the time, all the lows have been cut in a mix. It sounds great with everything else going on, but by itself it'll sound tinny.

I think most of what I think of as tone actually comes from the fingers. There's subtle variations of vibrato and pick attack that make the notes sound better. For example, I think Yngwie has the best tone but I can't stand that brand of music or, god forbid, him as a human being. Steve Morse has the worst tone in the world, but I love all his tunes. Go figure.

[marksound]

I don't know. Seems like no matter what equipment I use, I still sound like the same to me. Blessing and a curse, I guess.

[Marzocchi705]

I agree with marksound, whatever im playing with, or playing thru, i still sound like i sound. I can give my Guitar, amp and effects to someone, they wont touch the knobs or anything, thele sound differant to me, all because of there playing style, its differant to mine.

Basically, your tone can be found in mysterious places, if it's on a POS then so be it.

Yup, i was loving the sound of my cheap Encore strat copy, it cost about 60 buk, but it was mine and i loved it, it took me a while to warm to my LP. I think we all waste far too much time trying to sound like someone else, we sould waste that time trying to sound like ourselfs.

[GregP]

No doubt that tone is in the fingers, not in the gear. But even players with brilliant fingers, who sound "like themselves" sometimes have crap tone on record. So while I might be able to recognize the player and still admire his/her "signature" sound, I can also say, "man that tone sounds naff on this song."

So, while tone is a combination of many things, I guess I'm mostly thinking of the timbre in this case.

Greg

[bigdguitars]

thats why there are 1000 different businesses out there, what I love in tone could be anothers hate.

if we were all so picky.

[mledbetter]

That's what EVH always said about his "brown sound".. it's all in the fingers..

To me there are 2 camps.. 1) the purists, and 2) the sound designers.. I am a purist. I love the sound of a guitar straight through a tube amp with nothing in between.. Just pure power valve distortion. The other camp, designs their sound through an arsenal of effects and can dial in whatever kind of tine they want.. I think of folks like vai, satriani, etc.. their guitar tone can be 100% different from song to song, but their "style" is easily identifyable..

I guess it boils down to separating the style from the tone. I rely a lot on style.. pick attack, vibrato, picking position, etc.. so the raw unadulterated sound lets most of that come through.. 10 years ago I would have lusted after one of those giant racks with thousands of dollars worth of effects in it..

I was going to say too, bue Jehle put it into great terms.. The recording factor makes a big difference.. Guitarist records, then the engineer tweaks the signal for maximum clarity and position in the mix.

Kinda follows the thread on Iron Maiden's tone.. It's hard to tell what their tone really is from listening to a record. So many things happen in post.

[Gorecki]

Kinda follows the thread on Iron Maiden's tone.. It's hard to tell what their tone really is from listening to a record.  So many things happen in post.

←

EXACTLY! Spend a lifetime looking for a killer tone and then take it to the studio....and start over!

Interesting Slash was mentioned, I'm not a big fan but bought the Velvet Revolver CD just because of the hype around the CD production that IMO is pretty mediocore. Slashes rhythm sounds are okay but solo sounds couldn't sustain more than 3 seconds and sounded thin a cheezy to me.

The focus on 'the tone' has always seemed a bit silly to me. When I'm in the studio, I'm constantly changing things up because it's considerably more fun to experiment. In a mix, 'the tone' usually doesn't work anyway, you'll find yourself thining it out, cleaning it up, next thing you know it doesn't sound anything like what it once did. But a studio session essential evil none the less.

[Thoughtless 7]

I agree with marksound, whatever im playing with, or playing thru, i still sound like i sound. I can give my Guitar, amp and effects to someone, they wont touch the knobs or anything, thele sound differant to me, all because of there playing style, its differant to mine.

Totally agree here.

The hardest thing i think to do is try and copy someone elses sound. The best thing to do imho is find your own sound.

[GregP]

Definitely true, but on the other hand, since a person's sound/style DOES ultimately come from their fingers, I'm still willing to explore certain traditional "formulas" like strat to Tube Screamer to Bassman.

The recording aspect is certainly something to consider. Sometimes people will post sound clips of their 'tone' but without a backing track. I always think to myself, "well, that's all well and good, but what happens when you throw a bass and a kick drum in there?"

SO I guess it's a fine line to be drawn. Slash doesn't always have great tone, but on Appetite for Destruction it was almost invariably awesome. Somewhere along the way the engineers and producer hit the right combination of quality guitar tone and yet good mixing. In the meantime, I WOULD rather ultimately serve the song than the tone.

Greg

[mledbetter]

Definitely true, but on the other hand, since a person's sound/style DOES ultimately come from their fingers, I'm still willing to explore certain traditional "formulas" like strat to Tube Screamer to Bassman. 

←

Well one thing I just can't do without is real distortion. Once you've played through a maxed out tube amp and heard all the beautiful overtones and subtleties that come with true power tube distortion, you'll never be happy with fake distortion again..

The best way to do that is with some sort of l-pad or variable active load device between your tube amp and the speaker. I use an l-pad but I got specs from weber's website on how to match the resistor pairing to my output and ohms so i don't risk hurthing anything. I've had no troubles. Folks say it hastens the death of your tubes, but I'm thinking if that IS true, it's because you're playing with your tubes fully maxed out all the time rather than just the occasional blast. I have heard that you can blow your output tranny if you don't have the right setup for your power soak.. You have to keep the load in line what what the amp expects or you can damage your amp.

I haven't tried the tube screamer. I was always a Boss DS1 guy.. I'm always surprised when i hear of some famous guitarist that uses a DS1 in their mix.. On a solid state amp, the DS1 sounds thin.. on a tube amp you can use it as a gain boost and you really get a nice drive.

[marksound]

In the meantime, I WOULD rather ultimately serve the song than the tone

Funny you should mention that. I'd like to really find "my sound" and go from there, but I play a lot of different kinds of stuff under the "Classic Rock" heading. That means that I have to be able to sound as much like the record as possible. Fortunately, that means more gear for me. Unfortunately, that means more gear to haul around.

[thedoctor]

Someone on a different thread said that you should play an accoustic for two weeks and then go back to your fav. axe. I think the same applies to hearing yourself with NO effects and trying to get comfy with the way you sound without. Then turn them puppies back on. Guitars, by themselves, do a lot for the way I play. Amps and effects just kinda raise or reduce the "suck" level!

[Curtis P]

my post here might sound goofy, but its 100% how i feel about tone

tone is a subjective thing, you can have someone like Tom Delonge say that Slayers tone is utter crap, but then have him turn around and say that

Barney playing the flute is the best tone out there, its a totally subjective and no matter who you ask, or how much you try and convince them, its going to be a personal thing

My gear, is really simple, so simple infact, i only own 2 patch cords, and probaly will buy just one more so i can hook a wah pedal to my rig, other then that, i have no use for many stomp boxs, I use a Boss HM-2 distortion pedal, straight into my Peavey Bandit 112, sure its not the greatest amp, but I am still workin on getting my half stack...

I play alot at school these days for my music class, there are about 9 different guitarist in the class, with 9 different playin styles, theres Emo, Screamo, Metal (i am the only metal head there) jazz, rock, classical, the list goes on and on forever

There is a guitarist in my class, his name is alex, he will not play any amp except his own, which is: 2 marshall MG series heads, with two 4 x 12 cabs, does he need it, hell no, why does he play it? because hes a rich little snob and thinks his band "flood" is the greatest band out there, they are a decent band, but himself and the bassist rely on there pedals (each has 15 pedals)

Anyways, thats my little rant, i am really tired, and like i said earlier, it might sound goofy, but hey, i dont care really

Curtis

[Gorecki]

In the meantime, I WOULD rather ultimately serve the song than the tone.

←

Ultimately comes down to that especially once you've grown bored with yourself.

[psw]

That's what EVH always said about his "brown sound".. it's all in the fingers..

←

I keep coming back to the revolution that EVH started with his first records. I saw recently that the frankenstein strat's single humbucker only rated 8.1k ohms...you get far hotter single coils. And the whole thing was just slapped together. He ran the thing through a couple of cheap effects nailed to a board that survived several world tours.

The quest for hot pickups, tone woods, etc often negates the quest for tone. A lot of guitar's are starting to look like furniture!

EVH and others (like Jeff Beck) show that...even with a crappy drill, you can still drill a hole! Some of the best stuff comes from making the most of what you've got. Sometimes inherient restrictions of an instrument (high action, heavy strings, etc) can be used as an asset (SRV). It's all in the hands and the approach you take to the thing.

I'm not sure that any of the great guitar sounds and players ever got better sounds and technique from "improved" instruments. Santana still sounds great but some of his best "tones" were made with quite "inferior" equipment. Hendrix's sound is amazing, but what he worked with is positively primitive (no floyds for him!). Would he necessarily sound better on a PRS. Jeff Becks Jackson/floyd sound of the Flash era really sucked compared to what he still does with a pretty much standard strat with a standard tremolo.

These are guys who could have any guitar they want but the key to their tone really lies within and adapting their techniques to the instrument and their equipment to their technique. For EVH, getting his sound mean't ditching a lot of conventional wisdom and pushing the limits of what he had at hand. He was also a becon to guitar Modders who, with simple mods, could get the "tone" they wanted from the most amazingly simple stuff.

Everytime I lust something new I remind myself of this because I know my "sound" is in what I've got...I've just got to learn how to bend it to my will! Plus, there's nothing cooler than seeing someone get an amazing sound out of an otherwise POS that's been tricked up just enough to make it work for them.

pete

[mutronboy]

I totally agree psw,

Especially regarding getting the most out of modding ordinary gear...

look at all those great 70's jap guitars...those solid Les Paul copies are fine with a few mods...get rid of all the brass bridge crap...stick a couple of maple plugs in...a tuneamatic...a pair of Duncans and you're laughing..the heads are usually good enough...

I'm not really a Les Paul man, but the same applies to all the others...Strats etc

I can't believe the new price of Gibson Les Pauls, though (especially in Australia)

I recently eBayed an 'Axiom' branded Custom Agent (same as the Ibanez)...

The price I got for it (AU$450) is about an eighth of the price of a new Gibson Custom...

I've certainly played a lot of Gibsons that were worse than that Axiom....

Peace

[GregP]

Regarding EVH, though-- despite saying that it's in his fingers, he's also the guy that was super-picky when designing his guitars. Certain things had to be 'exactly right', and not just for looks. I'd imagine it was ditto for his amps. He's not "religious" about his amps, but there IS one particular favourite of his that he refuses to bring out on the road.

Come one, we've all read the same articles.

Greg

[mledbetter]

Regarding EVH, though-- despite saying that it's in his fingers, he's also the guy that was super-picky when designing his guitars.  Certain things had to be 'exactly right', and not just for looks.  I'd imagine it was ditto for his amps.  He's not "religious" about his amps, but there IS one particular favourite of his that he refuses to bring out on the road.

Come one, we've all read the same articles. 

Greg

←

well, when he said that the most was back in his early days when he played the frankenstrat througha beat up marshall amp and a couple of stomp boxes.. Now he's got more rack effects than just about anybody.. but in his punk days he was much more of a purist..

[psw]

Yeah...GP....I think though that that was part of my point...EVH did mod his guitars, sometimes to the extreme. Nothing wrong with being picky about his set up.

The point is that it was more a matter of action and the little details that facilitated his technique...and there's always going to be some magic voodoo about amps and such.

Led Zep got some of their heaviest sounds with a telecaster and a supro amp..sometimes even with the old masonite low powered lipstick danelectro (like on Kashmir). Some people also actually like the hard hitting immediate sound of a good tranny amp, yet they try hard not to admit it...each to their own.

Neil Finn (crowded house, etc) uses a lot of wacky cheapo guitars in recording even though they barely stay in tune. They add sonic character to the mix that your standard Les Pauls and Strats just don't deliver. He doesn't use them live as they are so unreliable, but some of the sounds he gets down deep in the mix are terrific and unique.

Anyway, nothing wrong with a nice looking guitar. And, you definitely want something that works for you, reliable tuning, action that facilitates your style, sustain or percussiveness. Just saying, you can find your tone, even in cheapo homemade jobbys if you take the care to set them up to suit the job.

tis all

psw

[Daniel Sorbera]

That's what EVH always said about his "brown sound".. it's all in the fingers..

←

I keep coming back to the revolution that EVH started with his first records. I saw recently that the frankenstein strat's single humbucker only rated 8.1k ohms...you get far hotter single coils. And the whole thing was just slapped together. He ran the thing through a couple of cheap effects nailed to a board that survived several world tours.

The quest for hot pickups, tone woods, etc often negates the quest for tone. A lot of guitar's are starting to look like furniture!

EVH and others (like Jeff Beck) show that...even with a crappy drill, you can still drill a hole! Some of the best stuff comes from making the most of what you've got. Sometimes inherient restrictions of an instrument (high action, heavy strings, etc) can be used as an asset (SRV). It's all in the hands and the approach you take to the thing.

I'm not sure that any of the great guitar sounds and players ever got better sounds and technique from "improved" instruments. Santana still sounds great but some of his best "tones" were made with quite "inferior" equipment. Hendrix's sound is amazing, but what he worked with is positively primitive (no floyds for him!). Would he necessarily sound better on a PRS. Jeff Becks Jackson/floyd sound of the Flash era really sucked compared to what he still does with a pretty much standard strat with a standard tremolo.

These are guys who could have any guitar they want but the key to their tone really lies within and adapting their techniques to the instrument and their equipment to their technique. For EVH, getting his sound mean't ditching a lot of conventional wisdom and pushing the limits of what he had at hand. He was also a becon to guitar Modders who, with simple mods, could get the "tone" they wanted from the most amazingly simple stuff.

Everytime I lust something new I remind myself of this because I know my "sound" is in what I've got...I've just got to learn how to bend it to my will! Plus, there's nothing cooler than seeing someone get an amazing sound out of an otherwise POS that's been tricked up just enough to make it work for them.

pete

←

I both agree and disagree. Let me explain.

A good player will influence a crappy guitar (to a point) and a bad player won't make a good guitar sound good but when a good player meets a good setup it sounds aweomse.

You guys make it sound as if it doesn't matter at all.

I was at a david crowder concert recently and his two electric players were using brand new tom anderson atom's running into orginal vox and badcat amplifiers. And let me say WOW. That was the single best tone I have EVER heard. Two awesome players with some awesome guitars and amps.

The amp changes the sound much more than a guitar. A PRS will still sound like total crap through a crappy 10 watt practice amp. But a $150 squire will sound great through a bogner head.

Just my .02