monkyboy777 Posted September 12, 2003 Report Share Posted September 12, 2003 Hello, Been watching these forums for awhile and have decided to go ahead and dive into building. I already have 2 bodies started ( RG copies: 1 mahogany and 1 paduak) and hopefully, time allowing, will start on the necks this weekend. Here is my question....when glueing body woods, has anyone used a finishing blade to get a smooth edge for joining? I used a regular stock blade and then lightly sanded before glueing the 2 bodies that I have. They look okay, but I am aware that running the blanks through a jointer is the best alternative. However, I am looking for possibly a less expensive alternative. Any info would be appreciated. P.S. This forum is definately the best of its kind...alot of great stuff here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krazyderek Posted September 12, 2003 Report Share Posted September 12, 2003 i've heard Freud makes a blade that cuts just as clean as a jointer, but i think it's kind of expensive... like 60$ + i think course my table saw is a POS especially the fence so i just baught a cheap 4" 170$ jointer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
syxxstring Posted September 12, 2003 Report Share Posted September 12, 2003 the other issue is square. If you dont already have a square edge the rip fence on your table saw wont help much. You could CAREFULLY use a miter jig. BUT unless your end is square your back to screwed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daveq Posted September 12, 2003 Report Share Posted September 12, 2003 I was of the impression that a smooth edge is not as important as a straight edge. What I mean is that it is important that the two edges not angle away from each other or have large gouges. The surface can be rough when gluing, and I heard (I think from Dan Erlewine's video) that a slightly rough edge (from low grit sanding) will actually look better when glued because it will help hide the line. Of course, a perfectly smooth surface wouldn't be best for gluing anyway. Anyone else remember reading/hearing this? I don't know for sure about this but I do know that the edges need to be straight. I guess the smooth part is arguable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Rosenberger Posted September 12, 2003 Report Share Posted September 12, 2003 The blade must be perpendicular to the table as well (exactly 90 degrees) or you'll get a glue line on 1 side of your blank, or the pieces wont glue together flat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krazyderek Posted September 12, 2003 Report Share Posted September 12, 2003 I was of the impression that a smooth edge is not as important as a straight edge. What I mean is that it is important that the two edges not angle away from each other or have large gouges. The surface can be rough when gluing, and I heard (I think from Dan Erlewine's video) that a slightly rough edge (from low grit sanding) will actually look better when glued because it will help hide the line. Of course, a perfectly smooth surface wouldn't be best for gluing anyway. Anyone else remember reading/hearing this? I don't know for sure about this but I do know that the edges need to be straight. I guess the smooth part is arguable. well i duno about you dave, but my table saw doesn't cut the cleanest/straightest line, it usualy ends up burning one of both peices of wood and leaves semi circles here and there, but yes, the surfaces have to be roughed up for the glue to take good espcially on woods like ebony, but they have to be sanded from an already uniform surface a la jointer or a good table saw. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Setch Posted September 12, 2003 Report Share Posted September 12, 2003 Smooth surfaces are best for glue joints in wood glued with PVA or hide glue. A rough edge can hide the glue line nicely, but clean flat surfaces as left by a plane or scraper create the strongest joint, if I flatten a joint with sand paper I usually follow up with a scraper to smooth the fuzz sanding leaves. The exception to this is when joining 2 dissimilar materials, like when you glue the plastic binding to a guitar, in this case a little "tooth" on the plastic aids adhesion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daveq Posted September 12, 2003 Report Share Posted September 12, 2003 I think the fuzzy edges were said to be desirable when gluing the fretboard to the neck. Maybe it has something to do with what Setch said about different woods? Who knows. As for the table saw, I know what you mean Derek. I would never use my table saw blade as the final prep for joining anything. I don't know if it improves with a higher quality table saw but mine really sucks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krazyderek Posted September 12, 2003 Report Share Posted September 12, 2003 lol yuuup, i just spent an hour cutting up some zircote for fingerboards.GRRRRR lol it was frusterating to say the least.. i only ended up with 2 FB's from a 1" thick peice.. (that's bad, i should be able to get 3) . i've seen some higher quality tables in use before, you can be alot more exact, everything is steel, and doesn't wobble or bend (shitty fences) and most of the higher end tables come with blade stabalizers included, that along with the fact that if you can afford a table like that, odds are you're using la cream de la cream of blades. Setch, well what i've heard, woods like ebony have to be roughed up with at 100 grit at the most... usualy 80 or 60 otherwise the glue has very little to stick too cause ebony can come out almost be like a mirror if you have new blades on your planner or jointer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monkyboy777 Posted September 13, 2003 Author Report Share Posted September 13, 2003 Thank you for the input everybody...guess I'll save my money and get a jointer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Setch Posted September 13, 2003 Report Share Posted September 13, 2003 Good glue adhesion with ebony is aided by revealing a fresh surface just prior to gluing, but I still don't advocate sanding or scoring the ebony. The joint created by PVA and/or hide glue is a chemical joint, not a mechanical one, and it works best on a smooth flat surface. Rough surfaces only aid in a mechanical joint, where they give the glue something to grip to, which helps glues like epoxy. Of course, a tablesaw or jointer with a less than perfect blade could be burning or burnishing the surface of the wood, and that isn't good for gluing. If that's the case you can sand the joint flat (don't rock your block - see budmans post) then scrape it to defuzz before gluing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westhemann Posted September 13, 2003 Report Share Posted September 13, 2003 this pva glue you guys keep mentioning.what is it and what is it good for?is it superior to titebond for body joining. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goat Posted September 13, 2003 Report Share Posted September 13, 2003 My jointer cuts a really smooth surface.Not the best for a strong joint.I remember reading it somewhere,so I sand it lightly then dampen it lightly with water to get the grains to stand a little and when it drys,I glue the surface.I did this on a carved archtop I started a couple of years ago.It gives a good strong joint. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Setch Posted September 13, 2003 Report Share Posted September 13, 2003 My jointer cuts a really smooth surface.Not the best for a strong joint.I remember reading it somewhere,so I sand it lightly then dampen it lightly with water to get the grains to stand a little and when it drys,I glue the surface.I did this on a carved archtop I started a couple of years ago.It gives a good strong joint. It gives a weaker joint than if you'd left the surfaces smooth. The idea that rough surfaces create stronger glue lines is very widespread, but it is incorrect. To quote Frank Ford (www.frets.com) "Hide glue sticks to surfaces by electrochemical attraction, or specific adhesion. Mechanical bonds, like little “fingers,” may help modern adhesives such as epoxy because of their very high cohesive strength, but with hide glue’s low cohesive strength, roughening joint surfaces will not help adhesion.. It is better to be concerned about the electrochemical properties of the wood." This is also true of PVA (Wes - PVA = Poly Vinyl Acetate ie: white glue, yellow glue, titebond etc). The glue itself is not strong at all, but the bond it creates is extremely strong. If you roughen the surfaces you reduce the area of contact between the joined surfaces, so you get less bond strength, and more glue between the two surfaces, which is bad since the glue is weak. I know this all sounds counterintuative, but it is right - smoother *is* better when glueing wood to wood with Titebond or hide glue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krazyderek Posted September 13, 2003 Report Share Posted September 13, 2003 crap! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Setch Posted September 13, 2003 Report Share Posted September 13, 2003 Smile damn you! Your joints will be fine, you just don't need to worry about roughing surfaces in future. I'd recommend you get a cabinet scraper - probably the cheapest tool you'll ever buy, and one of the best all-rounders. You can just run it over the back of fingerboards etc before glueing and it removes oxidisation and leaves an ideal gluing surface. It's also great for levelling spots fills or runs in laquer, smoothing the back of necks, cleaning glue off joints before you reglue repairs - so many uses. I use mine all the time, most recently to finish up the carving of this volute on my latest... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryeisnotcool2 Posted September 13, 2003 Report Share Posted September 13, 2003 well for those of you who have doubts about wich is stronger, just test it by taking some scraps and glue two together with rough edges and then two together with jionter smoothe edges. then try to break them! smash on the work bench or use a hammer. personally ive found in my experiments that if you take a joined edge sand it with 100 or 120 grit with a block so to keep the edge square the joint will be the strongest and will hide the best. but that is just my opinion. as for the table saw vs. jointer, well i love the jionter it has many uses but i also use freud blades in my table saw, the are the best and they are well worth the 60$ as long as you take care of it and dont cut through nails! it will last you years of great use. (you can get the resharpened for like 5$) and they do cut great if your table saw is set up correctly, and i just use a little delta 10" but it cuts beutiful! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
budman68 Posted September 13, 2003 Report Share Posted September 13, 2003 I always use a joiner when gluing up "like" wood surfaces. Come on, doesn't anybody watch Norm Abrahms in the "New Yankee Workshop"? Dave-> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnuk Posted September 13, 2003 Report Share Posted September 13, 2003 monkeyboy777, Do you live close to any wood suppliers? Call them up and ask them if they can plane the wood for you. They have mondo sized automatic planes at most of these places and they're excellent! I had my wood blanks planed after I bought them and they went together nigh on perfectly. The finish is very smooth after planing, about two minutes with some 400 grit paper on a block and the edges are sliky smooth! Setch, thanks for the information on glues. I never knew PVA was a chemical glue and not mechanical! Very interesting stuff! Especially when it's considering the simplest glue of all, kids use it in school when they're 5. The same with hide glue, I would have thought that was mechanical as well. Ho-hum! I guess the only way to use the keyed surface idea with such glues would be if they overlapped perfectly, rather than randomly, allowing pockets to form. I sanded my join and glued it thinking.... 'hey.... I should have probably keyed that'. Then I read your post! As to cutting the blanks, I don't know why it's so important for the saw to cut straight. If the cut is on an angle, you're going to carving the body out of the block anyway. But for almost everything else I can see it being a major issue. Have you looked at the small band saws available? Are they generally considering worse than the table saws or something? Damn, I wish I got Yankee Workshop! Kind regards, John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monkyboy777 Posted September 14, 2003 Author Report Share Posted September 14, 2003 johnuk, There are wood suppliers nearby, but they won't plane, join, etc. They will rough cut a length for you, but that's it. There is a supplier some 40 miles away that I have yet to contact. I have discovered that the method that I did use worked fine. I just set the fence on my table saw (10" Ryobi with a good fence) to take off maybe 3 or 4mm then lightly sanded the edges. After routing the body shape, spindle sanding the sides clean and sanding the front and back with 150 grit, the joint is invisible. I am very happy with the results. I am still going to look into a jointer and have hit all the pawn shops with no luck. Craftsman had a 4' jointer for @ $140, but it appears it is no longer available. Thanks everyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guitarfrenzy Posted September 15, 2003 Report Share Posted September 15, 2003 I am still going to look into a jointer and have hit all the pawn shops with no luck. Craftsman had a 4' jointer for @ $140, but it appears it is no longer available. Thanks everyone. That might be a blessing in disguise.. That's the same one my brother in law had and we could never get it to work right. I ended up bringing it to someone who charged me 10 dollars to do it and was no big deal. I really feel that if I had a hand plane I could get a good joint with that if I worked with it long enough. Anyone else good with a hand plane? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monkyboy777 Posted September 15, 2003 Author Report Share Posted September 15, 2003 guitarfrenzy, More power to you if you can use a handplane. I've got a nice one that I thought I would practice with for awhile, with not so good results. I'll keep trying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krazyderek Posted September 16, 2003 Report Share Posted September 16, 2003 ok, so on the titebond bottle it says clamp for 10- 30 minutes, but how long do you guys actually clamp for? And would using the glue sparingly actually be good for the transfer of tone in our case, or is that going to make the joint week? but it's a chemical glue do it souldn't matter, should it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westhemann Posted September 16, 2003 Report Share Posted September 16, 2003 this is what i do.i clamp it snug,then wait about 1 minute and resnug.i keep doing this until glue stop seeping from the joints because as the glue seeps out the clamps loosen.once my **** retentiveness is satisfied and i have stared at it for 1/2 hour or so like this i leave it clamped overnight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnuk Posted September 16, 2003 Report Share Posted September 16, 2003 this is what i do.i clamp it snug,then wait about 1 minute and resnug.i keep doing this until glue stop seeping from the joints because as the glue seeps out the clamps loosen.once my **** retentiveness is satisfied and i have stared at it for 1/2 hour or so like this i leave it clamped overnight. Ha ha ha ha! Weird thing is... that sounds like a really fun idea right now! John P.S. Thanks for the piccies, that blue is shweeet! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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