My First Post.

[Unrealize]

Hello everyone.

This is my first post, and firstly I'd like to thank everyone here who contributes with vast amounts of information that I try to dig into as much as possible. I have learnt a lot already just by reading this forum, and I really hope that I can someday contribute with something too.

I'm in the process of building my first guitar, and I will be making a thread here soon with some pictures and so on. BUT that was kinda on the side of what I wanted to ask first.

From what I can understand, Mahogany is a wood that is getting endangered, and both me and my gf don't like the idea of using wood that is, well, endangered, so I came up with an idea. In my country (Norway) we have quite a few web auctions similar to ebay, and they sell furniture from time to time. I was thinking of recycling some tables that I found there, what do you guys think of that?

I'm unsure if the wood on such a table is Mahogany all the way through, maybe just some kind of laminate, and if so, then the idea is out the window, but if it is of the right thickness, and solid Mahogany, well, as far as I can see it should be no worse than to sand it down and re-use it.

I found a table that to me looks like I can get 2 solid bodies from it, and it would cost me like 50$. I don't even have to worry about shipping cause the seller is so close to me I can drive over and get it.

So, a lot of rambling here, the thing I'd like to know/discuss is the issue of recycling wood. Good idea, or bad??

Thank you!!

[GregP]

A few people on this forum have used tables and doors, so I say go for it. That's just me. I think it's a great idea.

[ryanb]

Definitely go for it. The wood can come from whatever source you have, as long as it is in good condition and it's good quality solid wood to start with. Some of the best furniture is made using wood recycled from barns and flooring, etc. The same thing applies here. It often takes a bit more work to recycle wood into useable condition, but it is cheaper and a good re-use of the materials.

There are also lots of other woods that are less endangered alternatives to traditional mahogany.

[prs man]

ryanb is correct when he said there is a lot of other woods out there to chose from.

I don't need to say this but stay away from pine.

good Mahogany is getter hard to find for sure and when you do find it it has a high cost to it. I would say try another wood for your first building project and save the mahogany for another time.

cherry or alder, poplur is nice to work with.

the table thing would be cool if the wood is solid and not covered plywood.

a table from norway might be worth more then building a guitar from it but hey what ever works for you.

I live in the usa and work in a office furniture shop.

I honestly know your feeling in my heart.

I use to feel the same way you feel now about building with wood that is endangered.

I would be at working and have to cut up mahogany wood that was 12 feet long and 30 inches wide nice and clean on both sides [ looking awesome]

this made me sick to chop up a board that long and wide.

my point is the wood that is avaible to you what ever it might be has already been cut and there is nothing you or I can do to prevent this and life goes on.

there has been some nice wood cut up I would have wanted to have for my projects.

bottom line is if you don't build with it some one will and they might use more then is needed.

if it makes you feel better you might try and plant some trees to replace what you used to build with. I don't know what kind of stuff grows in norway but any tree would be cool.

Unrealize I hope that helps you feel better about your building and the wood you choses. good luck to you.

[Prostheta]

FYI, birch and pine, and "fluffy pine" according to my Finnish wife, Nina are the most common in Scandinavia. Try planting mahogany there and it would be killed by the wolves or the snakes dude.

Anyway - old wood used for tables and doors tends to be stable as well as it's had plenty of chance to decide whether it wants to warp or check or not :-)

[Unrealize]

prs_man, I'm using alder for my first project, I was just thinking about this in a general matter.

I've spent so much money buying tools for my workshop that I'm not gonna stop with this first guitar, so I thought recycling would be a good idea, and also like Prostheta mentioned, the wood should already have become stable.

I'm also going to use some Alder for my backyard, I have access to plenty of wood there, but of course this needs to dry up for a long time, so I need to get hold of other woods until I can use my own alder...

I have access to Birch too, but I read somewhere that Birch don't produce a good sustain, and the sound of it was not so good, perhaps I'm wrong on that one?

[Prostheta]

I've not read much in relation to birch, but I believe it is usable.

[Desopolis]

from what Ive been reading, the problem is more based on people burning the forest down for roads and farm land, and a small part of illegal harevesting.

BUT the majority of logging is regulated.

http://www.worldwildlife.org/trade/faqs_mahogany.cfm

[al heeley]

I reckon if I hadn't come across those lovely bits of Honduran mahogany that we ripped out of the old fireplace in our new house, I would not have had the courage to start making guitars. Since the wood was already there and free, it mattered less if I made mistakes as long as I learnt from them. (Let me say I have a lot of learning to go!)

How much of the tropical rainforst mahogany goes into beautiful guitar bodies? How much into furniture or other items? Are we a tiny drop in the ocean of this problem or a significant contributor?

Wood, at the end of a day, is a commodity, there to be used, but used sensibly. I'd much rather a beautiful instrument were made from it than a set of kitchen cupboards or a sideboard.

[Unrealize]

It is true that not much wood goes into the making of instruments, probably not even one percentage, but that is really not the point.

The whole usage sums it up and when the wood is gone, it doesn't matter if you only use it for instruments. That's why I thought that recycling would be a good idea.

[prs man]

recycling is great.

I do recycling wood I get from work.

if I don't take it it might end up in a land fill some how.

I don't know much about birch for a tone wood.

do more research on the internet. hey you might get a great tone from using birch when used as top wood and alder for the back.

if I had some birch I would use it and not give it a second thought.

people get a good sound from bass wood and that is so soft and dents easy.

I say if you got birch go for it.

[Daniel Sorbera]

Legal logging only uses replenishable foresting. Most of the instrement wood you buy comes from trees that have fallen or trees that we're selectivly taken so other trees can grow better. The people the harvest have no intension of making a tree go extinct, that would put them out of a job

It's really not a big deal buying wood to make a guitar. Your doing the enviroment a favor. Have you ever seen an old growth forest? It's disgusting. Dead trees growing so close together you can barley tell which is which. Cutting some trees down is not the end of the world. If you personally don't buy wood for guitar building do you think you saved a tree? Nope. If you don't buy that peice of wood somone else will. Using "recycled wodd" doesn't hlep either. It still came from a tree right?

Look the enviroment is able to replenish itself, and the loggers are doing everything they can to make sure every tree they cut down is replaced. Buying wood to build a guitar is really not that big of a deal... I would much rarther see a beautiful guitar or peice of furniture than a tree.

[Supernova9]

Legal logging only uses replenishable foresting. Most of the instrement wood you buy comes from trees that have fallen or trees that we're selectivly taken so other trees can grow better. The people the harvest have no intension of making a tree go extinct, that would put them out of a job

It's really not a big deal buying wood to make a guitar. Your doing the enviroment a favor. Have you ever seen an old growth forest? It's disgusting. Dead trees growing so close together you can barley tell which is which. Cutting some trees down is not the end of the world. If you personally don't buy wood for guitar building do you think you saved a tree? Nope. If you don't buy that peice of wood somone else will. Using "recycled wodd" doesn't hlep either. It still came from a tree right?

Look the enviroment is able to replenish itself, and the loggers are doing everything they can to make sure every tree they cut down is replaced. Buying wood to build a guitar is really not that big of a deal... I would much rarther see a beautiful guitar or peice of furniture than a tree.

Using only recycled wood is not the way forward. Legal logging is indeed, however, consumers need to be aware of how the wood they're buying was logged.

Statements like "I'd rather see a guitar than a tree" are a bit unnecessary, and unwise. Tables and guitars may look pretty, but they don't recycle CO2 and turn it into O2. What good are guitars and tables if you can't breath to enjoy them?

No-one's saying cutting down SOME trees is wrong. the problems come when you have trees like the old Honduran mahogany - demand was high, supply not so high, but they cut it all down anyway rather than keeping the process renewable. The result? The high price of Honduran/Cuban mahogany these days.

[Ben]

Everything I've ever made has been made from recycled wood. So far I've gone through two old tables that were destined for the tip

[Southpa]

There are still wasteful practices when dealing with exotic woods. I've worked on the construction of one pleasure yacht (65' long) where all bumper, strake an cap rails were cut from prime, straight-grained Honduras mahogany. I'm talking about 16' X 1.5' X 6" lengths of mahogany timber where a 5" X 3" curved section is carved out then steamed and bent to fit the contour of a hull. All the rest of that timber is rendered into sawdust and shavings in the process. I learned that any pieces of wood that were substandard for the project ie. didn't have the right "grain structure" were burned. Otherwise it just takes up space. You can bet I acted fast and swung a deal with the head carpenter . I still have enough mahogany for a few more guitars.

When it comes to recycling Honduran mahogany, I think its a good idea. I actually got an old headboard from a friend that will make some backs for future maple drop tops. I'm always an opportunist when it comes to "harvesting wood". Furniture wood is already dry and cured as well as planed / sanded square and flat. Thats a headstart on your project right there! Try beginning with a piece of raw wood when all you have is a jack plane and sanding board.

[al heeley]

While a would agree with most of Godin's comments I think his belief that it is in the loggers long-term interests to sustain forests is flawed. A logger may be concerned about his income over the next 20 years, he's going to be ok anyway, I'm assuming the deforestation of Brazil will take a little longer than that, so why should he care either way? However, if prices are escalated on the basis of pandering to largely middle-class misunderstandings of the environmental issues involved, then the lumber businesses get more profit for doing less work. Ideal, I once again find myself in the wrong job.

[Desopolis]

I olny know US standards regulate forests, and in fact sometimes the burn parts of them down becuase the wood kills the other trees..

along with the fact that they selectivly thin sections to avoid fire...

or so the yellowstone tourguide said...

[Mattia]

It's a myth to think that all legally logged wood is logged from renewable sources; a large part of it isn't. Heck, MOST of it isn't, not for any traditional definition of 'renewable'. There are FSC certified mills producing sapele, plantation grown Cuban and Honduran and Small leaf mahoganies are available (farmed wood, from Asia - Sri Lanka I believe), etc., and logging in Western/developed nations is a little better regulated than in developing nations, but still. The FSC and similar projects are a major step in the right direction, but they've got a long way to go yet. Forestry is responsible for some deforestation, but it's by no means the biggest problem; farming's a more serious threat to biodiversity. Prices escelate based on scarcity and CITES regulations (all tropical American populations of mahogany are CITES II regulated, meaning certified paperwork is required to export it across borders; these regulations do not apply to plantation grown wood). The US is the world's largest consumer of mahogany, in particular, accounting for something absurd like 40% of global consumption with a really quite tiny population in the grand scale of things, most of it for fine furniture and the like. Asia's the next biggest glutton, with increasing economic wealth going hand-in-hand with the demand for fine hardwood products.

Luthiers are a drop in the bucket, in the grand scheme of things, but we're the pickiest buyers; the standards for 'tonewood' are much higher than for anything else, sellers know this, and we get the cream of the crop as it were. Which means we should, as a community, have a vested interested in ensuring the long-term viability of wood production. Ultimately, the stuff grows on trees, but it doesn't take much to make a species economically extinct for all intents and purposes. And remember that hardwoods, compared to spruces or redwoods, for example, grow pretty damn quick. You want 100+ year-old trees for most guitar soundboards, but a 30-50 year old Walnut or Mahogany tree is probably ripe for harvesting.

I use the wood because I love it, and I'd rather see it turned into guitars than wasted on furniture (seriously, whenever I see solid wood furniture, I think of the amount of guitars that could be build with them).

[SwedishLuthier]

When buying wood you can always look for the FSC-mark. The idea is to produce wood in a responsible way. There are rules about how to harvest the wood and replanting and stuff. Check out www.fsc.com for more info. I think that all wood that LIM sells are FSC wood nowadays. So if you want to shop mahogany with a slightly better conscience, by FSC wood

I've not read much in relation to birch, but I believe it is usable.

If I remember correctly a lot of old Burns guitars had necks made from birch.

Unrealize:

You might also try beech and oak. I have used both for body woods. They are heavy though, so it is more practical to use it for chambered bodies (that’s what I did). Pine was used in some of the first Teles. Pear, cherry and also apple have been used in instruments for hundreds of year and should be available here in Scandinavia. Check if you can find some. Me I’m have some willow laying around that used to grow at my grandfathers house. It has been drying for some 25 years now and I am about to check if it is usable for body wood. For more inspiration about odd wood being used in guitar check out Robban Sarlings site: http://www.aresguitar.se/ He is a very nice guy and he also happily answers questions about different wood and how that can be used. He was that one that convinced me that I should have a go at using beech for a body.

My main point is that you can use what ever wood you have if it is strong, stable and dry enough. It might also give you a unique sound and a unique guitar.

[Mattia]

LMI sells a couple FSC-certified woods, but no mahogany. Only Narra, some Maple, Machiche and Pau Ferro.

[RGGR]

Most rain forrests destroyed, are detroyed not so much because of wood harvesting, but more to create farmland. On this farmland mainly modified soy is planted. This soy is mostly used as pig feed.

So if you're really picky about the environment - become a Muslim (or a Jew).

(oh, wait....a whole set of new problems arrises with this...... )

I do realise that working with exotic woods, I'm at the end of a food chain, that starts with legal or illegal harvesting (read: destroying) of trees.

Do I feel guilty about that.....you bet I am.

At same time I love working with wood, the way it never turns into a dead material, but still speaks to you....through it's tone, through it being a pain in the butt sometimes when working with it.

The way I try to conserve wood is to be picky about the blanks I select, try to waste as little wood as possible, and not feed my work to the WOD.

I feel that if I turn a piece of wood into a wonderful instrument, the tree will thank me for it.........