One-piece Guitar

[jmrentis]

As Greg said and almost every member here and at most places will tell you, avoid anything he writes, it's garbage.

Also, rejecting what crackpot Ed Roman says is much different than rejecting what the top luthiers around the world say. If you had 10 or more widely known luthiers that agreed with what you and he said, then you could make a reasonable argument for your case, otherwise it doesn't work. You said yourself that you are just starting and your only reference is Ed Roman, that's not a great place to start nor a stable ground for making an argument. Ed Roman is good though, at getting people to believe his stuff.

Lastly, I did not understand your last statement and I'm not quite sure the word "sympathy" is what you are looking for. I do not know what you were trying to say there, but I don't think that was the word you were looking for. J

[fryovanni]

A glued joint surely does not act like a car suspension.

A thick layer of glue acts like a car suspension not the joint.

Nah. Most glues tend to get hard. But guitars aren't glued together with a thick layer that acts as a "buffer" between pieces of wood anyhow. So even if glue were that rubbery, that's not how guitar woods are jointed, laminated, etc. So, it's a false analogy.

(all meant in fun )

Good call Greg. Glue joints are not designed to be thick. Some glues such as epoxies are designed to be used a little thicker, but Titebond for instance is not. Starving a glue joint with pressure is not an easy thing to do, but if the joint is sloppy it is possible(end grain sucking up glue and can starve a joint with average pressure). As far as a glue being rubbery. Some glues may not dry as hard as others, but HHG is a glue that you can use if you want a "harder" glue. A larger concern with plastic glues would be creep, but this generally does not pose a problem with properly made joints. I would personally be a little concerned about compressing the wood(not so much as it relates to the join, but crushing the wood itself with extream pressure). The reality is that most glues will achive more than enough strength, and a clean joint with commonly used methods. You will not solve a poorly surfaced or prepaired joint with extream pressure(you are more likely to weaken it). Extream pressure could weaken a glue joint made with epoxy.

Peace,Rich

fryovanni:

On that i use a glue called urea resin or kaurit leim,

to work with that you must know that when that glue cures completely the left over turns like a piece of stone.

You cant have that glue NOT pressed cause it will not sink in the wood pores and that is bad while jointing with that type of glue,because it has no flexibility unlike the aliphatic resin glues(titebond)and epoxy that have flexibility that is a the tone killer fact.The surface must be flat and flawless,

The pressing machine is flat and cannot cover a mistake that might happen in the surface flattening.

As about a luthier i start now working on a project but as about woods joints glues and techniques im a pro for many years now.

Glues are not getting hard when cured,not all at least and now that titebond is one of them.

I just joined the forum and at my first post,and i see a smart ass pic,conversation is the best thing to do.We can all learn form each other.

Extreme presure will not weaken the joints cause when you press that amont of force the glue inside the joint will be driven out from the joint and the remains of the glue will SINK into the wood grain and that will give a flawless rock-hard invisible joint with a lot LESS tone killing glue.

Anyone that is intrested to see some good articles check this site:techarticles.

I have no idea of what his guitars are sounding like but what he sais on that link are usefull.

Every mind has its own way of thinking.

Whose wrong?Whose right?

Results can say that.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion. Urea Resin is fine if you have the equipment, can work fast, and take no issue with the chemicals used. Personally I am not using nor will I be using Urea Resin for my projects. I do use Hot Hide glue for certain applications, as it has no issues with creep, sets harder than other glues, has a very short open and cure time. So I can understand the appeal of Urea Resin in these areas. I would not say it is a bad choice if you are comfortable using it.

As far as PVA, Epoxy, HHG being "tone killers". I would simply ask you that you answer these questions, and you will make me a believer.

1. What frequencies and level will be attenuated by the use of any of these glues?

2. What glue joint used by any of these glues will be weaker than the surrounding wood?

Consider the glue used on fine violins and clamping pressure utalized. Consider the level of stress applied to these joints compaired to a structurally overbuilt instrument such as a solid body electric. Consider the level of scrutiny placed on the voicing of these instruments. Think about the direct effect a poor glue joint will have on the resonance of a violin vs a solid body guitar(given that the violin body itself is the prime producer of sound).

As a new luthier, be cautious of believing what you read. Ed Roman, has little credibility in my book. I would put more faith in a reliable source such as Taylor. Use your experience in woodworking and joining, but remember Luthiery does not always follow the same rules.

These are my opinions of course, and I would not expect you to agree or disagree. Like you said Who's right? Who's wrong? I can't say, but it is good to keep an open mind. I can say with confidense that nobody has all the answers. Actually the longer you work with instruments, the more it will occur to you that most "new" innovations are revisiting concepts that have been around hundreds and hundreds of years(even though people seem to like placing patents, and calling them their own).

Have fun with the hobby, and enjoy making great instruments.

Peace,Rich

[Nicko_Lps]

A more apt analogy would be that the glued joints (if glued properly) are more like welds than springs/suspension. The act is to join the wood together solidly, not tentatively.

The pic was just a joke... Wes was looking for it... Conversation is indeed best, you're right about that. Just make sure that it's not one-sided and that you don't have your opinions so solidly formed that you're not willing to listen to knowledgable peeps and/or logic.

Also... +1 that Ed Roman is a snake-oil salesman and not a credible source.... conversations about him are done to death around here, yet every now and then we see evidence that people are believing what he writes. Your first and best step if you want to start down the path of learning is to ignore everything he says, wholesale. Even if there are grains of truth here or there (I've yet to see any), it's best to just assume everything he says is myth, voodoo, pseudo-science, and BS. Much safer.

What you say about Roman and how you say it made me really to laugh,you are right about him many things that he say are they way that he want them to be but from everything that you read you can make your own conclusions.

About his long neck tennon astro theory he is right in my opinion and he sais the nut and the bridge are both seated on the neck.

True but by the way he makes it the bridge cant seat over the neck it will be about 4cm away from the neck.

I read his articles and did something similar but my neck is not 5,5cm wide under the bridge,but it is about 10,5cm with a maple top.

I was sure wrong to place that url that way,sorry.Also he metion that the LP way of neck to the body joint is not so stable,well i have an LP that it detunes in one week or more.

But i still learnt something from him.

Do you agree GregP?

[Maiden69]

Also he metion that the LP way of neck to the body joint is not so stable,well i have an LP that it detunes in one week or more.

But i still learnt something from him.

The issue with the guitar going out of tune has nothing to do with the neck joint issue. And he is not the one that stated that the neck joint (tenon) on Gibsons are bad, it is every luthier that has had to work on them.

As far as glues, I'm not going to chip in, because Rich has said more than enough! Ed has some sound theories. ...but that's all they are! In reality everything is different! His long tenon, his PRS heel from hell, his direct neck pup to the neck heel... as you know now, all you read in that site needs to be taken very lightly.

Other than that, welcome to the forum and enjoy building guitars!

[GA Bert]

I have built a one piece guitar from Cocobolo. Why Cocobolo? Because I had a very large plank of it at the time. It took a lot of work and the end result was not satisfying. It had poor tone and was very thin sounding. I played musical pickups trying to improve the tone and lose the brittle thinness...nothing helped. Maybe it was a poor choice of wood and perhaps another kind of wood would have had better results. Also as someone else has already mentioned...it was heavy at 12 plus pounds.

[bancika]

I wouldn't expect one piece guitar to have much more sustain than neck-through guitar.

[ngaa]

Oh, you guitarists and your sustain.

Here's one of my favorite guitar builds done with 2 glue joints total.

http://projectguitar.ibforums.com/index.ph...st&p=294782

I wish his pictures were still up there, they just say IPB image

[Nicko_Lps]

I wouldn't expect one piece guitar to have much more sustain than neck-through guitar.

I agree to this,much more?How much more it wont stop?

It will sure be better but the question is does it worth it?

I have a mahogany slab 2.20m high 36cm wide and 5cm thick i would never kill that wood for justa test.

Neck trough for me too.

[Nicko_Lps]

Also he metion that the LP way of neck to the body joint is not so stable,well i have an LP that it detunes in one week or more.

But i still learnt something from him.

The issue with the guitar going out of tune has nothing to do with the neck joint issue. And he is not the one that stated that the neck joint (tenon) on Gibsons are bad, it is every luthier that has had to work on them.

Thank you for the welcome Maiden69,

I think that a gibson custom that was made in the 80's is still more than good and a bit old guitar,also i think that the joint is a part of that detuning problem along with woods tuners etc...I do take him very lightly and i would never think that he do all the astronomic theories that he mention in his site.

Peace.

[GuitarEng]

You're really just inviting a headache if you make a single piece guitar...mainly due to wood movement. If you do attempt something like this, I'd recommend using something fairly stable such as mahogany or rosewood.

As for tonal differences due to adhesives...I think that's stretching it. There is absolutely no such thing as perfect tone..it's completely subjective. I would really doubt that a .002" thick layer of glue really affects "tone" (however you define it) to any appreciable degree. There are a TON of things that matter way more than how thick your glue line is. My advice is to worry about those things.

That's my .02

G-Eng

[Maiden69]

http://www.dbeweb.com/guitar/images/Neck03.jpg

Here is a nice example of a Gibson neck tenon joint and the "LITTLE" bit of glue they use!!!

Nicko, I think that the tuners play a lot more than the joint will...

[Nicko_Lps]

http://www.dbeweb.com/guitar/images/Neck03.jpg

Here is a nice example of a Gibson neck tenon joint and the "LITTLE" bit of glue they use!!!

Nicko, I think that the tuners play a lot more than the joint will...

Damn dude!

That is sooo sick!

Man is that a gibson?If it is it's firewood...

[RGman]

Looks like a gibson headstock in the other pictures?

[Maiden69]

http://www.dbeweb.com/guitar/images/Neck11.jpg

Here is the tutorial

http://www.dbeweb.com/guitar/

[guitar2005]

http://www.dbeweb.com/guitar/images/Neck03.jpg

Here is a nice example of a Gibson neck tenon joint and the "LITTLE" bit of glue they use!!!

Nicko, I think that the tuners play a lot more than the joint will...

Wow! Is that a 1/4" gap at the end of the tenon?

I also find it odd that the tenon doesn't extend into the pickup cavity - I thought that was how the Gibson tenon was made on the Les Pauls.

Well, I feel a lot better about my build now. I was getting all bummed out because my corners on the tenon didn't match up perfectly.

[Maiden69]

I also find it odd that the tenon doesn't extend into the pickup cavity - I thought that was how the Gibson tenon was made on the Les Pauls.

Nope, all LPs are done like that, even the Epis... now I'm not sure about the SG's and the Double cutaway.

[Nicko_Lps]

http://www.dbeweb.com/guitar/images/Neck11.jpg

Here is the tutorial

http://www.dbeweb.com/guitar/

Ok the whole set of pics!

Theres even a small gap on the left and right..Not to mention the bottom that is not visible...

I would never make that joint at a cheap dinner table leg.

But Maiden69 he says that this guitar was made 1998 are the older ones that way?

[Maiden69]

I know there is a site that has Xrays of several LPs and PRS, I don't know the link, but I will try to get it. I don't know if the vintage guitars have the same problem, but I think that with the "cheap" automatization that Gibson uses it is a recent problem, say about 15 years... I hope a few of the more experienced, like Perry will come down and chime in!

[Nicko_Lps]

I know there is a site that has Xrays of several LPs and PRS, I don't know the link, but I will try to get it. I don't know if the vintage guitars have the same problem, but I think that with the "cheap" automatization that Gibson uses it is a recent problem, say about 15 years... I hope a few of the more experienced, like Perry will come down and chime in!

X-Rays?

That would be cool to see!

[zyonsdream]

If I remember, didn’t Fender make a guitar completely out of Brazilian Rosewood? I can’t remember if it was from a solid piece though. To me building out of a solid piece of wood is not being a responsible builder. I attempt to conserve every bit of wood that I can and the cost/reward isn’t there to build a solid piece guitar.

Besides properly completed glue lines will help to stiffen a guitar and help to prevent twisting. This is why a neck through neck is often made of two laminated pieces glued together instead of one solid piece. Glue tends to bond stiffer than the actual wood itself.

Therefore, it wouldn’t be advantageous to build it out of a solid piece due to warping and twisting reasons. I’m building an all maple guitar which will only have two glue lines when it’s finished which is just right for me.

[PTU 7's.]

I was thinking about neck stability issues. IF you don't make it thick enough probably it will bend to the grain side.