Wood Grain Direction In Body

[sunnydaze]

Another new guy here. I've been reading this forum for awhile and really appreciate the extremely helpful information people have taken the time to post.

Anyway, I am in the process of building my first guitar - actually it's gonna be my first two guitars. I bought some fairly large piece of maple for the neck and ended up making two - nearly done now. Aside from kind of ugly headstock, they should be OK.

I have a large piece of mahogany that is big enough for two bodies if I cut it so that the grain is running perpindicular to the neck rather than the same direction as the neck like most guitars I've seen.

Would greatly appreciate any comments on this before I cut this piece of mahogany.

Thanks

PS>Building a guitar has been a great learning experience so far - but now it seems I hardly have time to play....

[tim_ado]

i dont think it matters

ive seen tops that dont run the way thr neck does but im not 100% sure if the whole body could

[black_labb]

the direction of the grain does effect the grain from what ive read. i think it changes the attack of the guitar. the vibrations travel the quickest with the grain, not across it. doing it that way will probably give it pretty sloppy attack and not as good sustain, due to reduced stiffness of the body.

you could make the first with a single piece adn the second could be laminated a couple times, but now that i think of it, it wont be laminated with the grain paralell to the glue joints, which isnt the best situation. im sure you could do a flying v or similar with the second piece with a couple laminates.

[Setch]

I don't recommend it - it means your string tension is acting across the grain, not along it, and it means you'll have a lot more end grain to deal with when sanding and finishing. IMO sanding end grain is the most tedious and frustrating part of solid body construction.

[fryovanni]

Two reasons why you don't do that.

1-wood shrinkage and expansion with the grain is a tiny fraction of the amount it shrinks or expands cross grain. You want the maximum stability in relation to the scale length.

2 sound or vibration travels at about 5 times as fast with the grain vs cross grain.

Those are the best reasons(I know of) why the grain is oriented in the fasion normally used(same logic on necks). Now if you feel it makes no real difference because it is an electric, and it will play. Then you can run with it. Personally I think about the most significant thing we can do for an electric in terms of wood and building. Is optimise stability of the neck/body along the scale length to keep it playing well and hold its setup.

Peace,Rich

[sunnydaze]

I don't recommend it - it means your string tension is acting across the grain, not along it, and it means you'll have a lot more end grain to deal with when sanding and finishing. IMO sanding end grain is the most tedious and frustrating part of solid body construction.

Wow - that was quick! Thanks everyone for the quick replies. I've already put so much time and effort in this thing, I am going to go ahead and cut it so the grain is parallel to the strings or same direction as the neck. I'm sure I can figure out a way to use the left over sections. I am an American living in Taipei and it's been kind of tough to find some of the stuff I need. Fortunately, my company's stateside office supports us Ex-pats pretty good and has been shipping my StewMac orders for me. I'm going to try StewMacs waterbased finishing products, cause the nitro stuff can't be shipped overseas very easily.

Thanks again guy's I really appreciate the help.

[Quarter]

What are the dimensions of the body and your rough wood?

I'm sure someone here can help figure out the best way to lay it out.

[USAF1989]

As a cabinet-maker, I have some knowledge in wood characteristics. You can only control expansion/contraction to an extent. That said, properly sealed wood won't affect playability regardless of seasonal changes. You also must consider moisture content, among other things. Think of burl (not Ives)........look at the numerous grain directions, but it's vastly used. Mahogany vs. Ash Vs. Maple and on, and on, and on. Different grian patterns, sizes, etc. Different movement, and so on. Grain movement discussion can go on forever.

String tension acting across the grain vs. with the grain shouldn't be a huge deal, either. How much pressure is being applied to the fulcrom of the bridge screws, strings, nut? Who can answer this: what is the shear-strength of your bridge screws? Ask a Structural Engineer if you need more in-depth definition of anchors relating to strength/tension/strength.

Sound vibrations travelling 5X's faster in one direction than another? I'm not literate on that topic, but I'd be interested for the statement to sight references so I can investigate further.

Aesthetics would be the main reason to consider running the grain parallel wiht the neck. Mandatory, not by any stretch.

[Mike Sulzer]

"Sound vibrations travelling 5X's faster in one direction than another? I'm not literate on that topic, but I'd be interested for the statement to sight references so I can investigate further."

The easiest way to understand this is to find a piece of spruce, or whatever, cut for the top of acoustic guitar. Note that it bends much more easily across the grain than along the grain. The degree of stiffnes and the density enter into the equation for the speed of sound in the medium in a given direction direction. Stiffer, that is, harder to bend, means a higher sound speed.

I am a bit concerned about using the grain cross ways. It would depend on the type of body you are making. The critical area is the neck joint and hole for the neck pickup. Some designs do not have a lot of extra material in that area and weakening it might not be good.

[fryovanni]

As a cabinet-maker, I have some knowledge in wood characteristics. You can only control expansion/contraction to an extent. That said, properly sealed wood won't affect playability regardless of seasonal changes. You also must consider moisture content, among other things. Think of burl (not Ives)........look at the numerous grain directions, but it's vastly used. Mahogany vs. Ash Vs. Maple and on, and on, and on. Different grian patterns, sizes, etc. Different movement, and so on. Grain movement discussion can go on forever.

String tension acting across the grain vs. with the grain shouldn't be a huge deal, either. How much pressure is being applied to the fulcrom of the bridge screws, strings, nut? Who can answer this: what is the shear-strength of your bridge screws? Ask a Structural Engineer if you need more in-depth definition of anchors relating to strength/tension/strength.

Sound vibrations travelling 5X's faster in one direction than another? I'm not literate on that topic, but I'd be interested for the statement to sight references so I can investigate further.

Aesthetics would be the main reason to consider running the grain parallel wiht the neck. Mandatory, not by any stretch.

You sound like you have a grasp on radial vs tangential and longtitudinal shrinkage ratios. I am sure you know that no film finish or sealer will stop the transfer of seasonal moisture, it only acts to slow the process(which is great). Using well dried wood to begin with will allow you to only experience small dimensional changes due to seasonal moisture changes. Although the changes are very small(measure in the thousands of an inch). Our tolerances on a guitars string to frets are in the thousndths of an inch, and some people that prefer extreamly low action and dead straight necks can feel the effects of these changes). An acoustic guitar can see even more drastic changes as soundboards can shift more significantly than solid bodies.

As far as a good reference and handy source for general wood info-Forest Products Laboratory Wood Handbook covers a lot of ground. As for string tension. That would depend on the strings you choose to use. Daddario offers information on string gauge/ tension to pitch for their strings(good reference). Electrics probably run around 120lbs of tension(give or take), The set of 13's I slapped on my acoustic yesterday was closer to 170lbs of tension.

P.S. along with slower transfer of vibration(for what ever that is worth on a solid body), cross grain strength is ruffly 20% of the longtitudinal strength. I am not sure if strength in a solid body would be an issue, but I suppose if it was thinner in the neck pocket or hollowed etc... it could become an issue.

Peace,Rich

Edited July 5, 2007 by fryovanni

[Geo]

I know very little about this... but I imagine if you were doing a set-neck, the glue wouldn't hold as well in the sides of the pocket, since that would be endgrain on the body.

[bentwood999]

I dont think its a good idea to do that , i have seen guitars with the grain running (not completely perpendicular) but somewhat and built some of my own like that.> and yes usaf1989 burl (grain going everywhere) but does it sound GOOD???? (thats up to you) anyway take a square piece of wood about oh .100 thick 4" square (and break it with your hands) in both grain directions (whats easier) get what im saying (now put that under average 150 lbs of string pressure) say over a 10 year span. So usaf1989 saying QUOTE:String tension acting across the grain vs. with the grain shouldn't be a huge deal, either. is not good advice. (im not trying to bash anyone) but being a cabinet maker and instrument maker are Two worlds apart. Fryovanni and Setch have very good reasons NOT!! to do it too!!

(I miss burl ives)

[sunnydaze]

What are the dimensions of the body and your rough wood?

I'm sure someone here can help figure out the best way to lay it out.

Thanks for helping.

It's a big beautiful slab - she's 17 x 24 x 1.75 (inches). I am also a little restricted on how/where to cut because I am trying to pick the most "lively" and beautiful section for the initial body cut. Not sure if the way I am trying to pick the lively spot makes sense, but if you knock on the wood in different places, it feels and sound different - some spots seem kind of lively and some spots seem kind of dead.

I would really appreciate if can comment on the merrits of trying to pick a lively spot in the wood, and if so, the best way to pick the section.

Thanks again

[tim_ado]

no wait the ones ive seen are flamed soo its not running with the strings.......but im not an idiot the ones i thinkin of have been running at like 30-40 angles

[jmrentis]

no wait the ones ive seen are flamed soo its not running with the strings.......but im not an idiot the ones i thinkin of have been running at like 30-40 angles

When flamed figured necks jumped in head, I visualised the figure and said hey wait, then a couple second passed and my brain caught up and reminded me the grain isn't the same as figure and the flame in nice neck is usually perpendicular to the grain. Is that what you were thinking Tim about Tim, the flamed figure instead of grain? It took me a second to sort the flamed figure. Most of the time even the finger boards are cut to keep the same vertical grain pattern as well. Very interesting information in this thread, I knew one was better for basic reasons, but the details are very interesting to know and important. Thanks for the neat info guys. J

[tim_ado]

mmmmm kind of

i know that the flame usualy runs perpendicual(spelling?) to the grain so thats not what im getting confused about

im just lookin at an ESP bass now and the flame is at a slight angle and if u think back to oztrades guitar i think that the flame was at a bit of an angle then as well

just trying to figure if the flame is at an angle to the grain or the whole piece is

[jmrentis]

I get what you are saying. You are talking about how sometimes the flame is angled on a neck or body and wondering whether the grain is not actually vertical or if the flamed is not actually perpendicular to the grain. I was just looking through some pics at 3D woods of flamed maple and for the most part the angled flame ones still were pretty much vertical grain orientation. So, I think that usually in those cases like the flamed neck that are angled, the flame is actually less perpendicular than usual. I could be wrong, I saw both ways actually. Sometimes the grain was cut slightly at an angle giving the slanted look, but was still perpendicular and in others the flame was not perfectly perpendicular. So I think both are possible, but maybe the more often the figure is just not perpendicular to the grain. Like you said a few degrees off. I'm sure someone that has been working with the stuff for many years will have better insight, but thats what I noticed from the boards I looked up. J

[tim_ado]

i think its that the flame isnt perpendicular to the grain

in a mag i have theres a picture of and ESP B255 bass were the flame isnt straight

i just when on the site and it straight there so i firgure if its just a one off thing its probably the grain rather than a design feature

[Hector]

i think its that the flame isnt perpendicular to the grain

in a mag i have theres a picture of and ESP B255 bass were the flame isnt straight

i just when on the site and it straight there so i firgure if its just a one off thing its probably the grain rather than a design feature

flame is not always perpendicular to the grain.

[bentwood999]

here is a example (just a in general pic) with arrows in the direction of the grain. In my experience they do sound a touch muddy. But!! sometimes thats what your looking for.(the almighty diff tone) Not saying its a bad thing just different. Looks badass too!!

[westhemann]

I always try to run the grain as straight as possible through the body...on my exploder I ran it along the longest part of the body(tip of upper bout to tip of cutaway) if I remember right.it sounds great...not at all muddy,but the bubinga is very dense

[bentwood999]

ya bubinga is one hard wood (that must look great) show a pic if ya can wes love to see?

[mattharris75]

ya bubinga is one hard wood (that must look great) show a pic if ya can wes love to see?

The Exploder!!!

[westhemann]

It is only slightly off kilter(the grain.)

Bubinga has a wierd grain...

[bentwood999]

thanks matt WOW!! FANTASTIC son of a bubinga GREAT LOOKING GUITAR wes i noticed the red fingerboard is that to bubinga? bloodwood maybe? very cool looking very cool!! (i bet it plays as good as the looks too)