Curved Of Straight Spokeshave For Neck Shaping?

[fyb]

I've got some Woodcraft gift cards on the way for Christmas so I was thinking of picking up a good spokeshave for carving my necks. Do you think I should get one that's curved or flat? I'd like to get as much mileage as possible out of it so I want to make the right choice. Also... what brands do you like? I don't mind spending some money if the tool will last and work well. One thing I've really learned is that cheap tools are no bargain! :D

[low end fuzz]

I've got some Woodcraft gift cards on the way for Christmas so I was thinking of picking up a good spokeshave for carving my necks. Do you think I should get one that's curved or flat? I'd like to get as much mileage as possible out of it so I want to make the right choice. Also... what brands do you like? I don't mind spending some money if the tool will last and work well. One thing I've really learned is that cheap tools are no bargain!

cheap tools are no bargain , but the wrong ones are just headaches;

i personally consider a spoke shave to be the last tool to use for neck shaping;

cutting/carving tools should be used to get the basic shape ; files and straight edges for uniform(inity?)

and then some straight cabinet scrapers to get a head start on those rasp marks prior to sanding;

a spokeshave will leave you with a lumpy pitted mess; no matter how good someone is with one (imo)

because theyre drawn over long areas and are like hand planes (with no base to follow) theyre a handy tool to please the eye; but the senses of touch are a lot harder to fool

[Hector]

I use my spokeshave a lot.

not only in neck shaping but also in the beggining stages of a carved top.

I'd say go with the straight one. the curved one doesn't make any sense for me.

[Rick500]

I have a straight one. The one from Woodcraft, as a matter of fact. (The black and red Woodcraft brand one, not the Veritas. I think it's actually a Stanley.)

I knew when I bought it that it would require some fine tuning, but once I did that, it's been great.

The Veritas one they sell for about $20 more looks pretty well-tuned right out of the box though... at least the one I looked at.

[sb guitars]

Out of curiousity, what exactly did you do to "tune" it? I'm building my first neck so this thread is also helping gain new knowledge...

[Rick500]

Just basically made sure that all the surfaces that are supposed to be flat, are dead flat; sanded the paint off of the face that rides along the workpiece surface and sanded it flat; put a nice sharp edge on the blade.

Google "scary sharp system" for the full details. [Actually, here's the link: http://www.shavings.net/SCARY.HTM ]

Edited December 24, 2007 by Rick500

[rhoads56]

I've got some Woodcraft gift cards on the way for Christmas so I was thinking of picking up a good spokeshave for carving my necks. Do you think I should get one that's curved or flat? I'd like to get as much mileage as possible out of it so I want to make the right choice. Also... what brands do you like? I don't mind spending some money if the tool will last and work well. One thing I've really learned is that cheap tools are no bargain!

i personally consider a spoke shave to be the last tool to use for neck shaping;

cutting/carving tools should be used to get the basic shape ; files and straight edges for uniform(inity?)

and then some straight cabinet scrapers to get a head start on those rasp marks prior to sanding;

a spokeshave will leave you with a lumpy pitted mess; no matter how good someone is with one (imo)

because theyre drawn over long areas and are like hand planes (with no base to follow) theyre a handy tool to please the eye; but the senses of touch are a lot harder to fool

What a load of dribble. A spokeshave is one of the easiest to use tools, and i have NEVER had an issue with bumps, lumps, pits, etc (and nor have the numerous people i have taught to shape necks... the majority who have zero woodworking experience). Spokeshaves have been used for necks, and of course spokes, for hundreds of years because they work. The fact they are drawn over a long distance is PERFECT, and absolutely not a problem like you state they are.

Tools are only as good as their operator. May i suggest you take a closer look at the operator.

[carousel182]

I agree with rhoads56. Ive never had any problems with the spokeshave ever. I do use rasps for shaping my necks though it just seems easier for me. But i can and do use the spokeshave sometimes. Maybe you should practice with the spokeshave some more or sharpen it.

[Myka Guitars]

cheap tools are no bargain , but the wrong ones are just headaches;

i personally consider a spoke shave to be the last tool to use for neck shaping;

cutting/carving tools should be used to get the basic shape ; files and straight edges for uniform(inity?)

and then some straight cabinet scrapers to get a head start on those rasp marks prior to sanding;

a spokeshave will leave you with a lumpy pitted mess; no matter how good someone is with one (imo)

because theyre drawn over long areas and are like hand planes (with no base to follow) theyre a handy tool to please the eye; but the senses of touch are a lot harder to fool

Spoken like someone who does not have much experience with hand tools. For starters a spokeshave is just like a plane in the sense that is makes a straight cut on an even plane (ever wonder why they call them that?). I actually use my spokeshave to eliminate inconsistent topographies on my necks. That is what they excel at. To go further, files and rasps do a great job as well but obviously you have never used a good rasp or you would not mention the intermediate step prior to sanding. A good rasp will leave a smooth cut needing very little sanding. I am not talking about the $6 hardware store variety, but a good rasp.

I agree 100% with Perry, you need to spend a lot more time working with your tools before you go giving advice on how to best use them. I have built necks with spokeshaves, rasps, chisels (I know), and routers. The spokeshave is still one of the best and most efficient tools for the job. Rasps are great for feathering in the headstock curves into the neck and also for the same work with heels. But a spokeshave is a fundamental neck carving tool.

Then again I know someone who can't sand a flat plane with a sanding block. Go figure.

EDIT: To answer the original question: I prefer a straight spokeshave for neck carving.

~David

Edited December 24, 2007 by Myka Guitars

[jmrentis]

I am fully grateful that I was able to pickup the idea of a spokeshave prior to carving my neck. I had a fairly thick blank of sugar maple and jatoba and I seriously almost got it to the final thickness in a hurry. I was fully surprised at how well it worked, no issues at all smooth nice cuts that required little finishing work. I was just using a standard straight spokeshave from Rockler, most likely a Stanley, it was cheap and the better of the two they had. I got out a flat surface and with some sandpaper up to 2000 got the blade nice and sharp and even after that carving, it is still nice and sharp. I am grateful for the advice that many people here had given when I was deciding on using a spokeshave. I did great with my cheap shave, but I would love to upgrade to a nice one eventually. Anyhow, spokeshaves are definitely a nice to tool to have in your arsenal, now its time to get myself a nice rasp. Anyone wanna throw out the name of their favorite rasp? J

Edited December 24, 2007 by jmrentis

[Prostheta]

I love my spokeshaves. One Stanley spokeshave with a flat face, and a cheap convex faced spokeshave. The cheap one required a lot of adjustment and fettling to bring it up to spec, but for the price it was worth it. The Stanley is okay, and meets my needs and works well. Perhaps expensive spokeshaves would be better, but to meet the purpose mine are fine. I regard them as a "coarse" tool to get close to where the finer tools like papers and scrapers excel.

[fryovanni]

Ditto what most everyone is telling you. Spokeshave is a great tool. All bladed tools need to be sharpened and tuned to work well, and you need to understand how to use them, but if you do this they flat out rock. The last and least tool I reach for is sandpaper. I use sandpaper don't get me wrong, but for final light sanding. I have even been eliminating a lot of that final sanding with more use of scrapers(which are another must have).

I would start with a good flat spokeshave. If you don't have your sharpening gear, buy them now. You need to be able to sharpen or the most expensive bladed tools are not going to be much good. If you can sharpen and tune well, even moderately price(but functionally solid) tools will perform like champs. The most expensive bladed tools may work fair out the box, but will decline if you can't sharpen.

Chisels, Planes, knives, Scrapers, and spokeshaves are the ticket Make them DEADLY SHARP.

Peace,

Rich

P.S. LEF- Sharpen the blade on your spokeshave, and set it to take the smallest and most even cut(set the blade even across the shoe) you can. Keep this thought in your mind, the thinnest curl of wood is at least 10-20 passes with aggressive sandpaper. As you get used to the feel of the spokeshave you can adjust to take a tiny bit more material, but it is fine to take very light cuts. Biggest mistake most people would make is to try to take aggressive cuts with a plane or spokeshave. Also take full, even controlled(lighter cut will help with this) passes.

[low end fuzz]

well; like i ''carefully stated'' this is my personal honest opinion; and i will not be swayed, and not because i dont know how to use my tools ;

"""""IMO"""" in order for the spoke shave to give you a consistant flat surface (that dosent need maintenece after) you have to start with a very flat surface; because of the very small 'guides' (whatever the surface around the blade is called(im sure not knowing that will have me crucified!) that only follow what is directly in front of the cutter; by what i means is, if it hits an area untrue/flat that is a wider area than the tool ,it will follow that contour and dig it in more;

it has nothing to rely on for balancing whats infront and behind, making it match from end to end;

and if your going to just be roughing a shape using a pull tool; use a draw knife; it allows you to see everything thats going on; can cover a lot larger of a surface when held on an angle and so on ; but anybody that comes off that billigerant questioning methods, wont have their minds open enough to even listen why theyre being disagreed with anyways;

and as far as rasps go; ive never seen any file that could take off as much stock as mine as quikly that didnt leave marks; but the scraping is for rounding out the shape youve carved in;(which i could see using a spokeshave for actually! but id still be doing everything else already and instead of a 30$tool im using a scraper i made out of old resaw blades;ha)

but whatever; im a fan of rhoads and mykas projects; so they must have methods that work very well for them

but they are not convincing me o nthis spokeshave deely;

sorry to get you all soo upset

[Mattia]

Until you've used a hand-cut rasp, you haven't experienced what a rasp is capable of, frankly.

I don't use spokeshaves any more, because the ones I have are terrible and the pair of (good quality) rasps combined with a selection of scrapers deals with any neck shaping challenges I might care to throw at them. Spokeshaves work, but get a decent one, with decent tool steel for the iron if you don't want to get frustrated at the ever-dulling cutting edge and give up on it entirely.

[guitar2005]

i personally consider a spoke shave to be the last tool to use for neck shaping;

cutting/carving tools should be used to get the basic shape ; files and straight edges for uniform(inity?)

and then some straight cabinet scrapers to get a head start on those rasp marks prior to sanding;

a spokeshave will leave you with a lumpy pitted mess; no matter how good someone is with one (imo)

because theyre drawn over long areas and are like hand planes (with no base to follow) theyre a handy tool to please the eye; but the senses of touch are a lot harder to fool

What a load of dribble. A spokeshave is one of the easiest to use tools, and i have NEVER had an issue with bumps, lumps, pits, etc (and nor have the numerous people i have taught to shape necks... the majority who have zero woodworking experience). Spokeshaves have been used for necks, and of course spokes, for hundreds of years because they work. The fact they are drawn over a long distance is PERFECT, and absolutely not a problem like you state they are.

Tools are only as good as their operator. May i suggest you take a closer look at the operator.

+1

I got a old straight stanley spokeshave off of ebay for $10 incl. shipping. I sharpened the blade and started to use it right away, after having ruoghed out the neck shape with a rasp. Works great on necks, because you can take long strokes. You can then finish up with a scraper and do some fine tuning with sandpaper.

[rhoads56]

Tips:

I dont do as Rich said with the blade nice an even, i prefer one side to be hanging out more (slightly), so i can get a more aggresive or lighter cut without adjusting the blade. As the neck takes shape, i adjust for a more even cut.

To ride the lumps, which you shouldnt really get because you started with a reasonably flat surface anyway, just angle the blade. Angle it so the cut is 45deg to the grain, not 90deg. Instantly you have four times the foot area.

Hand cut rasps are great, and i use them for shaping the heel and headstock curves, but i dont use them for actual neck shaping.

[Hector]

Anyone wanna throw out the name of their favorite rasp? J

http://www.woodcraft.com/family.aspx?FamilyID=282

Cabinet Rasp, Smooth Cut (#50), takes a Medium Handle

#06B02 Price:$59.99

you won`t regret buying this one.

my favorite tool in the shop.

[fryovanni]

Tips:

I dont do as Rich said with the blade nice an even, i prefer one side to be hanging out more (slightly), so i can get a more aggresive or lighter cut without adjusting the blade. As the neck takes shape, i adjust for a more even cut.

To ride the lumps, which you shouldnt really get because you started with a reasonably flat surface anyway, just angle the blade. Angle it so the cut is 45deg to the grain, not 90deg. Instantly you have four times the foot area.

Hand cut rasps are great, and i use them for shaping the heel and headstock curves, but i dont use them for actual neck shaping.

I suggest an even set to avoid control issues. If he hasn't got control over it yet it will act more predictably for him. After he gets a feel for the tool he can adjust the blade to get more aggressive (at least that was my thinking). Your spot on though, my blade is set a little more aggressive on one side and it is handy.

Something tells me he does not want to hear what we are saying though, so kinda mute point.

Peace,Rich

[AprilEthereal777]

Great thread guys! Thanks to all contributors for the valuable advice this 'apprentice' is gleaning . I have carved about 10 necks now and have done all of them predominantly with a rasp....then scrapers and final sanding. I have a spokeshave gathering dust on the wall and have simply not used it. Question to Perry and Rich (and those in favour of the spokeshave).....what advantages do you find the spokeshave offers over the rasp? I imagine you would be removing stock in a smoother and perhaps more controlled fashion? Would this take considerably more time to achieve final shape than a rasp? As a ball park figure, how long does it take you to carve a neck from blank to final shape?

Again, thanks for all the great advice.

[fryovanni]

Great thread guys! Thanks to all contributors for the valuable advice this 'apprentice' is gleaning . I have carved about 10 necks now and have done all of them predominantly with a rasp....then scrapers and final sanding. I have a spokeshave gathering dust on the wall and have simply not used it. Question to Perry and Rich (and those in favour of the spokeshave).....what advantages do you find the spokeshave offers over the rasp? I imagine you would be removing stock in a smoother and perhaps more controlled fashion? Would this take considerably more time to achieve final shape than a rasp? As a ball park figure, how long does it take you to carve a neck from blank to final shape?

Again, thanks for all the great advice.

I use chisels, rasp, spokeshave,scraper, sheets of sandpaper. Each work well for different stages (I am usually making acoustic necks, FWIW). The spokeshave is what I use on the shaft to bring it down close, mainly because it is smooth, even, and makes nice little curls instead of a pile of dust. I haven't clocked myself, but I suppose I could spend a couple hours drinking coffee dinking around and shaping the heel and volute ends, and the shaft maybe an hour depending on how many times I check the forum(I don't rush at all, so I am a bad source for seeing how fast you could do something). I could see how a good rasp could knock out a shaft pretty quickly. Mattia has mentioned many times how nice his rasps work on his necks, and he is not one to use a method if it is not pretty slick Just grab your spoke shave and try it, then use the method you prefer. Shaping the shaft is not time a very time consuming task so I suspect it is 6 to 1 a half dozen to the other.

If you want to know about how long it should take at a professional level, Perry or David can tell you. I am just a slow going weekend hack

Peace,Rich

[low end fuzz]

if the point about not listening was directed to me, it couldnt be further from the truth, but i need to be convinced somehow to change what works perfectly fine and quikly, with something besides ;"thats complete dribble, i do it all the time",

but what i dont get now is as the thread goes on it seems like the order of operation is chisel, rasp, spokeshave, scraper, sandpaper, as to what started off as simply grabbing your amazing spokeshave and thats it!

im listening very closely and still think its not needed; not to say that someone else might not love it;

but to say "learn to use your tools before you give advice" is pretty persumptious when all you guys are doing is throwing another tool in the mix;

and i dont know about you but my way takes just over an hour to carve a neck; to clarify; that is a neck blank that has been glued, side profiled on the bansaw , fit in the pocket, flush routed and aleady has frets init.

the (metaphorical) clock starts at the shaping of the volute and heel (always first) and ends at the final sanding and/or the transfer carve into a set neck;

sorry if im causing a stink; but im upset about the questioning of methods that seem to be less reliant on various tools than the instigators; but like i said before; these guys on the oposing side of the issue make some retardadly amazing instruments; i seen a few in this upcoming calendar (that everyone should buy) so im always interested in what they have to say; but this; i dont buy it' sorry

merry christmas

grant

[Maiden69]

i personally consider a spoke shave to be the last tool to use for neck shaping;

a spokeshave will leave you with a lumpy pitted mess; no matter how good someone is with one (imo)

because they're drawn over long areas and are like hand planes (with no base to follow) they're a handy tool to please the eye; but the senses of touch are a lot harder to fool

These are the quotes I think most people are replying to. You are basically saying that the tool is good for nothing, not exact words, but reading into it. last one to use, leaves lumps...

To answer your last statement,

I'm listening very closely and still think its not needed

it is not that is not needed, like rasps might not be needed, or sandpaper, it is that if used right it is an invaluable tool for removing stock fast, accurate and easily. All tools have their place, a rasp removes stock fast, but mostly on a small area at a time, while with the spoke you can go the entire length of the neck.

In the end, I like to use all tools available, Only once I have use a spokeshave (thanks to Hyunsu), and I will be buying one as soon as taxes come over.

Neck profile

Body shaping

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v195/Maiden69/DSC02399.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v195/Maiden69/DSC02404.jpg

One tool is not mentioned here and I liked a lot while working at Hyunsu's is a carving knife, this one he made from a broken file. Both the heel and the volute were shaped using it. It took me a while since this was MY FIRST neck, but while I carved both my heel and volute, he did an entire neck (except for final sanding). This was in less than an hour.

I understand your point, but your first post was done unfounded and by personal opinion, a lot of bad advise has been given like that, and this is why most of the time, if I have limited experience I try to stay behind and wait until the most knowledgeable guys post to corroborate my ideas.

[low end fuzz]

i personally consider a spoke shave to be the last tool to use for neck shaping;

a spokeshave will leave you with a lumpy pitted mess; no matter how good someone is with one (imo)

because they're drawn over long areas and are like hand planes (with no base to follow) they're a handy tool to please the eye; but the senses of touch are a lot harder to fool

These are the quotes I think most people are replying to. You are basically saying that the tool is good for nothing, not exact words, but reading into it. last one to use, leaves lumps...

To answer your last statement,

I'm listening very closely and still think its not needed

it is not that is not needed, like rasps might not be needed, or sandpaper, it is that if used right it is an invaluable tool for removing stock fast, accurate and easily. All tools have their place, a rasp removes stock fast, but mostly on a small area at a time, while with the spoke you can go the entire length of the neck.

In the end, I like to use all tools available, Only once I have use a spokeshave (thanks to Hyunsu), and I will be buying one as soon as taxes come over.

Neck profile

Body shaping

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v195/Maiden69/DSC02399.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v195/Maiden69/DSC02404.jpg

One tool is not mentioned here and I liked a lot while working at Hyunsu's is a carving knife, this one he made from a broken file. Both the heel and the volute were shaped using it. It took me a while since this was MY FIRST neck, but while I carved both my heel and volute, he did an entire neck (except for final sanding). This was in less than an hour.

I understand your point, but your first post was done unfounded and by personal opinion, a lot of bad advise has been given like that, and this is why most of the time, if I have limited experience I try to stay behind and wait until the most knowledgeable guys post to corroborate my ideas.

touche' maiden69 touche'

[rhoads56]

if the point about not listening was directed to me, it couldnt be further from the truth, but i need to be convinced somehow to change what works perfectly fine and quikly, with something besides ;"thats complete dribble, i do it all the time",

but what i dont get now is as the thread goes on it seems like the order of operation is chisel, rasp, spokeshave, scraper, sandpaper, as to what started off as simply grabbing your amazing spokeshave and thats it!

im listening very closely and still think its not needed; not to say that someone else might not love it;

but to say "learn to use your tools before you give advice" is pretty persumptious when all you guys are doing is throwing another tool in the mix;

and i dont know about you but my way takes just over an hour to carve a neck; to clarify; that is a neck blank that has been glued, side profiled on the bansaw , fit in the pocket, flush routed and aleady has frets init.

the (metaphorical) clock starts at the shaping of the volute and heel (always first) and ends at the final sanding and/or the transfer carve into a set neck;

sorry if im causing a stink; but im upset about the questioning of methods that seem to be less reliant on various tools than the instigators; but like i said before; these guys on the oposing side of the issue make some retardadly amazing instruments; i seen a few in this upcoming calendar (that everyone should buy) so im always interested in what they have to say; but this; i dont buy it' sorry

merry christmas

grant

Well there you go. It took me 45 minutes to carve this neck a few weeks ago, and i commented to Jon (my assistant) about how much a pain in the butt it was, and how it took so long. Rasp volute and heel (hand cut double curved rasp, finished with smooth cut half round), spokeshave in between, and final sand. I start with a square neck, headstock thicknessed, beck of neck cut to within 2mm of final size.

Mahogany necks are generally just under 30 minutes, Maple generally about five minutes longer. Sanded to 240/360 grit (air powered orbital).

The first neck i ever carved was done in my one hour lunch break at my old job. Id never really used a spokeshave before, and had never carved a neck.

[fryovanni]

if the point about not listening was directed to me, it couldnt be further from the truth, but i need to be convinced somehow to change what works perfectly fine and quikly, with something besides ;"thats complete dribble, i do it all the time",

but what i dont get now is as the thread goes on it seems like the order of operation is chisel, rasp, spokeshave, scraper, sandpaper, as to what started off as simply grabbing your amazing spokeshave and thats it!

im listening very closely and still think its not needed; not to say that someone else might not love it;

but to say "learn to use your tools before you give advice" is pretty persumptious when all you guys are doing is throwing another tool in the mix;

and i dont know about you but my way takes just over an hour to carve a neck; to clarify; that is a neck blank that has been glued, side profiled on the bansaw , fit in the pocket, flush routed and aleady has frets init.

the (metaphorical) clock starts at the shaping of the volute and heel (always first) and ends at the final sanding and/or the transfer carve into a set neck;

sorry if im causing a stink; but im upset about the questioning of methods that seem to be less reliant on various tools than the instigators; but like i said before; these guys on the oposing side of the issue make some retardadly amazing instruments; i seen a few in this upcoming calendar (that everyone should buy) so im always interested in what they have to say; but this; i dont buy it' sorry

merry christmas

grant

Grant,

I made the comment, and yes I was talking about you.

Something tells me he does not want to hear what we are saying though, so kinda mute point.

. I said you don't want to hear what we are saying(a little different from not listening, and not too uncommon around here). If you like the methods you are using stick with them, it doesn't make a bit of difference to me or the other fellas chiming in about spokeshaves.

As far as the list of tools and order of use (in my case specifically). Well it would be insane to think I only use a spoke shave to carve an acoustic neck, and no one implied a spokeshave was the only tool used. The fact is many people use spokeshaves for shaping the back of a neck, because it was designed for tasks exactly like that, and it works fantastically. I have heard of people using a hand held belt sander for shaping the back of necks, that would be a case of a tool that may work(however risky, and messy), but was never designed for that task. Give a bad review of that tool in that application, and you probably will get very few people defending its use. Give a strong warning about using a perfectly great tool in an application and you will hear from the people who use them with great success.

I thought it was worth suggesting you give your spoke shave a second shot (with a couple suggestions on how to use it). The suggestion was meant with good intensions, but it was nothing more than just a simple suggestion (much as I wish everyone success, I could give a dam what they do with the suggestion, and I am not going to waste any more time trying to sway them if they do not want to change). I noticed you didn't want to hear was being suggested, and I dropped it at that (nothing else was directed to you). No need to debate, defend, change your ways, take or reject anything or whatever. Keep doing your thing if it works for you .

Peace,Rich