The Moog Guitar

[CrazyManAndy]

http://www.premierguitar.com/Magazine/Issu...oog_Guitar.aspx

http://moogmusic.com/moogguitar/?section=p...roduct_id=21131

I would love to have all that in one guitar...but the price is a bit steep for my wallet.

CMA

(Edit: I fixed the first link, sorry about that. It has a pretty cool video.)

Edited July 14, 2008 by CrazyManAndy

[Xanthus]

DROOOOOOOOL

Thanks Andy. I'm getting my late paycheck tomorrow at work, and you've given me a lot to think about

Now all those extra synth modes sound incredibly interesting. Why can't any guitar shop actually carry the INTERESTING stuff?

[SwedishLuthier]

Now we only need to be able to purchase the electronics separately so that we can put it into out own guitars. But I can bet on that they do like Line 6. We will have to get a guitar and thrash it to get the electronics out. Lets just hope that Moog have actually spent more than like 100$ on the guitar itself and not taken the cheep road like Line 6.

[CrazyManAndy]

This guitar does look a lot nicer than the Variax. It certainly costs more! Buying them just to salvage the electronics would be an expensive proposition indeed.

Apparently, they make special strings for the guitar as well. One must use them for "best performance", but they said regular guitar strings can be used. I would like know how much of a difference the strings actually make.

CMA

[Paul Marossy]

What I think is the best thing about the Moog guitar is the "CONTROLLED SUSTAIN MODE - allows you to play sustained single or polyphonic lines without muting technique. The Moog Guitar sustains the notes you are playing while actively muting the strings you are not playing."

Even cooler is that it is apparently all done with analog technology. But $6500 for one is crazy expensive.

[Geo]

I like that one effect that changes with how hard you play. That's totally AWESOME.

What's interesting is that you could still hear the musicality of the guitarists' playing very clearly. Their very different styles shone through, so the guitar seems like it is very organic, which I imagine the Line 6 is not (though I haven't played it) since it's digital models.

[Paul Marossy]

the guitar seems like it is very organic, which I imagine the Line 6 is not (though I haven't played it) since it's digital models.

Yeah, I think that would probably hold true. To my ears, the real deal always sounds best.

[psw]

I hard about the Moog guitar a while back but have not got into the details of the thing. Of course this is the kind of direction that I wanted sustainers to go so I am glad that they have gone someway towards that. Shrouding it with mystery is a little rich, must find the patent.

All the envelope filter technology is a little old hat and can be done in many ways outside of the guitar, building it inside is a little overkill.

For the sustainer, I am not sure how far they have taken it. It is the same basic sustainer idea with harmonic modes. If the thing will work with either pickup or both is not clearly shown. The piezo bridge is most likely used to sense the string vibrations individually in "controlled mode" so that it runs the appropriate driver in a HEX system (like I had been building 4 years ago!) and was proposed in the ebow patent in the 60's. Basically six ebows but using the piezo hex system to sense the strings in use. I suspect then that the controlled mode might not work with the piezos. Again, not enough detail of the functions.

You can get a muting "anti-sustainer" effect, but generally in my experiments this has come about when I least wanted it! Still, pretty cool banjo like effect with the mute mode on (bit like the old mute felt thing that Leo came up with...hehehehe).

The guitar would draw a fair amount of power, so I suspect they have a remote power source like the line6.

So...glad it has come up for discussion and perhaps some clever folks with time on their hands will perhaps dig a little further to find out more about their sustainer stuff to work out what is going on.

It is true that a sustainer guitar does come across as 'magic' and "alive", it is a cool device for sure. Glad to see someone has at least tried to take it a little further. Similar and even more effects could be created with synths and digital things but they are not the same as the organic effects of string driving (usually a synth or sampled continuation of the note). As for line six, I have been pushing for them to experiment with conventional sustainers like my stuff as their pure piezo bridge would have no problems with EMI effects as with magnetic pickups and already having power on board, makes that easier too. But alas, few seem to take the device seriously and even though we have had ebows and sustainers for many years now, hardly anyone has used them on records and such which is a shame, cause it is a beutiful and inspiring thing!

pete

[Geo]

All the envelope filter technology is a little old hat and can be done in many ways outside of the guitar, building it inside is a little overkill.

pete

Yeah... the effect shown around 4:00 is the coolest part in my opinion. Does anyone know of any resources for building something like this as a self-contained unit? A tube circuit would be cool.

[joshvegas]

Does no one else think that the black part with the controls on is really unnecessary. I love the muted bit at 6.10.

How long before matt bellamy has one?

[080808]

just some thought about the Moog Guitar

1. it use piezo to get the vibrtao of the strings then amp it to control the driver

2. if there are 6 drivers for each strings, when one string "sustain", the other will not "harmonic"

3. but it seems dont need 6 drivers, 2 will make it, one for the 3 high strings, one for the 3 low strings. based on my experience with the F sustainer, the unwanted "harmonic" generally when you sustain the high strings, then get unwanted suustain from the low strings, 2 drivers for high strings and low strings individually can solve this problem.

4. if not use piezo, one way to make this work is to use a special bridge puickup-- like SD Vintage Rail (inside there are 2 windings- one for 3 high strings, and one for 3 low strings. they are in parallel)

Everything here is base on guess from the pictures and description. I wish I have time to do some experiment.

[psw]

Welcome to PG 08080808

I don't know about this Moog thing, the price is very high and I can find no technical or patent info...just some very hyped up company demo's.

I suspect that it does take the signal from the piezo bridge or at least uses the individual signals to decide which strings over a threshold to drive. An interesting variation on a theme...though I think they also have an overide of this so it would work as a normal sustainer. All the info is a bit vague...I assume for instance that it would only work with the bridge pickup and the rest is bypassed as with all other sustainers...but they neglect to really say.

All the demos seem a bit "tame" too. Everybody seems to have different expectations of what this technology can do and what they think they want from them. My DIY versions allow for a lot of dynamic range, this one and other commercial systems appear to be very "controlled". SOme people really want to have better polyphonic sustain, so all strings vibrate evenly. In fact, generally the lower notes tend to win out over time in a chord...but this can be a really nice and useful effect and single notes will work just as well with a single coil driver or multiple coils if done right.

3. but it seems dont need 6 drivers, 2 will make it, one for the 3 high strings, one for the 3 low strings. based on my experience with the F sustainer, the unwanted "harmonic" generally when you sustain the high strings, then get unwanted suustain from the low strings, 2 drivers for high strings and low strings individually can solve this problem.

Sustainiac use two coils as you describe in a bilateral driver (low and high strings) but they operate together to reduce EMI. I am not sure what fernandes are using now. I am not sure what this unwanted "harmonic" is...but you do need to learn a few techniques to get the most out of a sustainer, in particular damping with both hands and force of attack.

One of the big problems that a lot of people miss with these ideas is that if you have multiple drivers and pickups as you suggest or perhaps sustainiac use, to make it work properly, you also need multiple circuits...in your scenario two complete sustainers! Mot only would this take up a lot of room in circuitry, it would also use a tremendous amount of power. Like the Variax, I would assume that the Moog would require a dedicated power supply or eat through batteries in a flash. All sustainers are relatively high current devices, the more complex the more power required. As the moog also has on board effects like their step filter and such (probably best bought in a pedal form anyway) this thing must have some external power to be effective.

It is interesting and the more sustainers the better...but I am not at all sure of this instrument being taken up in the mainstream nor a lot of sales at that price...I predict it will disappear like the old gizmotron into the annals of sustainer history!

pete

[Robert_the_damned]

All the envelope filter technology is a little old hat and can be done in many ways outside of the guitar, building it inside is a little overkill.

I was thinking that too, hell my cheepo Korg Ampworks' evelope filter sounds nearly as good (can't much go wrong with designing an envelope filter!).

For the sustainer, I am not sure how far they have taken it. It is the same basic sustainer idea with harmonic modes. If the thing will work with either pickup or both is not clearly shown. The piezo bridge is most likely used to sense the string vibrations individually in "controlled mode" so that it runs the appropriate driver in a HEX system (like I had been building 4 years ago!) and was proposed in the ebow patent in the 60's. Basically six ebows but using the piezo hex system to sense the strings in use. I suspect then that the controlled mode might not work with the piezos. Again, not enough detail of the functions.

You can get a muting "anti-sustainer" effect, but generally in my experiments this has come about when I least wanted it! Still, pretty cool banjo like effect with the mute mode on (bit like the old mute felt thing that Leo came up with...hehehehe).

I was think hexaphonic too, possibly with some sort of canceling system so that the drivers either side of one driving a string help cancel out the EM field so it doesn't start trying to vibrate the strings next to the string its ment to be vibrating, would take some quite cleaver engineering as you'd then have to cancel this canceling field with the next driver along and so on.

The guitar would draw a fair amount of power, so I suspect they have a remote power source like the line6.

In the video it looked like there was a power supply going into the expression pedal, it may be that the power then runs up the cord to the guitar from that.

*EDIT* having just looked at the specs on their site it is indeed powered from the foot pedal

All in all I think that's a pretty impressive guitar, not sure I'd rush out and buy one as its not exactly something I can see myself using in any of the music I play but defenatly a very clever technical feat.

Edited August 18, 2008 by Robert_the_damned

[080808]

http://www.thomann.de/gb/fishman_vs50p_pie...artner_id=25293

http://www.bizrate.co.uk/guitars_bassguita...d608595704.html

see the pictures, or use " Fishman Bridge" as key word to make a search, then trust your eyes.

about complicated circuit, when there are profit, people can use SMD to make it work.

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One of the Sustainc model use the vibration from the neck as the source, so use a round piezo mounted on the body as source is also possible, just really hard.

Forget to mention, this forum is cool.

[psw]

Oh...I have no doubt that you can use the 6 piezos to get six independent signals...that is how things like the variax and some synth hex pickups work...but to make a sustainer that drives 6 drivers you will need 6 amps. Now...that is also possible, and small enough with SMD's...but then you need a lot more power, but then that is supplied via the pedalor so it would seem.

Some of the claims are a little odd...that they suppress string vibration...I suspect what happens is that the piezo sense which strings are giving out a signal and drives only them, so to that extent it is possible too.

Sustainiac don't take the signal from the neck...they send a signal to the headstock on their "Model C" Acoustic sustainer to vibrate the neck and so get sustain.

There is still the problem of EMI...the signal coming out of the drivers is electromagnetic so will be picked up by any nearby pickups...presumable it will only work with a bridge pickup as with normal sustainers.

What I can't find is any specific patent or technical information at all. If it is a kind of hex system, perhaps they are using the old HEET ebow patent that also included an arrangement of effectively six ebows built into a guitar and may recently have expired.

I am not sure that the effort would be entirely worth it or the cost of the guitar justifies the technological advancement, that's all. After all, fernandes have offered guitars "sustainer equipped" for a long time at far less cost.

It is great to see any new advances, but more progress would be nice in the direction of affordable versions of the technology and making the installation of it in other guitars easier. It would be nice also to see it included in guitars like the variax as they would not suffer from the EMI problems associated with magnetic pickups. Compared to the cost of this guitar, the variax technology seems to be a far greater achievement technically.

I still think the marketing is a little wrong, it might be a great guitar and concept but I just don't see it being widely accepted which is a shame as in the right hands it could make some great sounds...

pete

[080808]

Sustainiac don't take the signal from the neck...they send a signal to the headstock on their "Model C" Acoustic sustainer to vibrate the neck and so get sustain.

pete

My mistake.

[aidlook]

Oh...I have no doubt that you can use the 6 piezos to get six independent signals...that is how things like the variax and some synth hex pickups work...but to make a sustainer that drives 6 drivers you will need 6 amps. Now...that is also possible, and small enough with SMD's...but then you need a lot more power, but then that is supplied via the pedalor so it would seem.

Some of the claims are a little odd...that they suppress string vibration...I suspect what happens is that the piezo sense which strings are giving out a signal and drives only them, so to that extent it is possible too.

pete

Sounds to me in the clip that strings are actually muted in the more banjo-like sounds. Seems like this could be achieved by working the sustainers out of phase with the string vibration.

[Robert_the_damned]

Sounds to me in the clip that strings are actually muted in the more banjo-like sounds. Seems like this could be achieved by working the sustainers out of phase with the string vibration.

hmm that'd be interesting.....an anti-sustainer. I can see that being pretty useful in some situations actually, especially if you're trying to do something very fast and get a lot of defenition on it.

[psw]

That's right...I forgot about the active muting banjo thing...

Again, I could not find any technical details on this, but running the sustainer driver out of phase is how the harmonic effect is generally created...so I am not entirely sure how this is done

pete

[Prostheta]

Anti-sustainer? You mean like badly set pickup heights? :-D

[Geo]

Sounds to me in the clip that strings are actually muted in the more banjo-like sounds. Seems like this could be achieved by working the sustainers out of phase with the string vibration.

Wouldn't the sustainer just overpower the strings' initial vibration and "convert" them? Or would the adjustment be endless, so that the sustainer is always "one step (phase) ahead" of the strings?!

[psw]

I couldn't find any definite technical information even with a patent search. There would be various ways it "might" be done.

I have produced an "anti-sustainer" with phase differences, but generally you would get various harmonic effects with playing with phase. If you mean by "convert" the string is forced into phase with the sustainer siganl...this is often the case, real time phase correction is difficult...the DIY sustainers that I designed aim to avoid the whole problem of phase correction by working fast enough that phase differences are minimized and so a lot simpler.

My instinct suggests perhaps 'half wave rectification' so that instead of pushing and pulling on the string, it simply pulls and so suppresses vibration...but it is a little hard to tell what is going on and obviously they are not telling! at US$6,500 you'd expect it to be clever though!

pete

[Paul Marossy]

Hey, for anyone interested in this Moog guitar, the Nov. issue of Guitar Player magazine has a review of it. There's also a picture of the six sided all analog PCB with 3,000 individual components on it - it takes up 50% of the back side of the guitar!

Anyhow, it's neat to see "under the hood".