RestorationAD Posted April 17, 2012 Author Report Share Posted April 17, 2012 Question: when building up a neck blank like that with an accent layer in the scarf, what is the best way of building up the scarf? Do you glue the intermediate layer to one of the cut faces first, let it dry and glue up the scarf proper? Or glue the whole lot in one hit? One shot with pins. Dig through a few of my threads I cover it. Make sure your laminates in the scarf do not end up running into your volute it is bad form. Looks like an amateur did it. A true "Spanish Luthier's Joint" should start at about the 3rd or 4th fret this allows the fretboard to reinforce the joint. In the old days when you used hide glue the glue joint was not usually as strong as the wood around it. So making the joint closer to the headstock weakens the joint. It is not as true today as a Titebond joint made properly will be stronger than the surrounding wood... Still it is a matter of tradition and form. A classically trained luthier would not put a scarf that close to the headstock. If you are using laminates... One mistake to watch for is not lining up there lams properly. If a lam is off even a few thousandths it will stick out like a sore thumb. Now this neck is crazy as I wanted to do layered headstock. When I finish it the maple line in the headstock will be closer to the back of the headstock. I am going to add a maple headplate to round it out. I hope it works out like I see it in my head.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RestorationAD Posted April 17, 2012 Author Report Share Posted April 17, 2012 Thats as pretty neck... Really liking the color contrasts. Thanks. I am not sure about the purple heart yet... traditionally I am not a fan of it. However I think it might work on this one. I am torn on the fretboard. I have a purple heart board that would just make sense.... I also have a flamed Padauk board and some others... I like Ziricote with Padauk necks but I am just not sure yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curtisa Posted April 17, 2012 Report Share Posted April 17, 2012 One shot with pins. Dig through a few of my threads I cover it. Make sure your laminates in the scarf do not end up running into your volute it is bad form. Looks like an amateur did it. A true "Spanish Luthier's Joint" should start at about the 3rd or 4th fret this allows the fretboard to reinforce the joint. In the old days when you used hide glue the glue joint was not usually as strong as the wood around it. So making the joint closer to the headstock weakens the joint. It is not as true today as a Titebond joint made properly will be stronger than the surrounding wood... Still it is a matter of tradition and form. A classically trained luthier would not put a scarf that close to the headstock. If you are using laminates... One mistake to watch for is not lining up there lams properly. If a lam is off even a few thousandths it will stick out like a sore thumb. Good to know. I've just put together my first multi-laminate neck blank in the last few days and was going to slip in a scarf accent, but couldn't get my head around the best way to secure it while gluing, so I just went with a plain scarf. I did make sure the laminates lined up though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
demonx Posted April 17, 2012 Report Share Posted April 17, 2012 Make sure your laminates in the scarf do not end up running into your volute it is bad form. Looks like an amateur did it. A true "Spanish Luthier's Joint" should start at about the 3rd or 4th fret this allows the fretboard to reinforce the joint. In the old days when you used hide glue the glue joint was not usually as strong as the wood around it. So making the joint closer to the headstock weakens the joint. It is not as true today as a Titebond joint made properly will be stronger than the surrounding wood... Still it is a matter of tradition and form. I do it this way on purpose. I prefer this look. If i carve a volute it'll sit just on the neck side of my scarf not the headstock side... I mean just fit, as it's right at the edge. My scarf joints end just after the first fret wire assuming there's no laminations.. Sure it's non traditional, but in today's methods the glue joint is a non issue in the strength discussion and it stands out as different from the pack making it different to the billion Chinese scarf joints pumped out every second. (RADs are different as he does scarf art). I like to be different. Non traditional. However when doing a multi lam scarf I do have to move it back otherwise at the end of the lam it might not curve as much as you want. I do this by making my last piece of lam the same color as the headstock. I haven't done as many of these as RAD but the ones I have done look pretty cool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RestorationAD Posted May 1, 2012 Author Report Share Posted May 1, 2012 Trussrods... lots of trussrods. After cleaning them up with a file they need to be waxed on each end. The wax acts as a rust preventor as well as a lubricant and prevents any accidental glue from sticking to the rods. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RestorationAD Posted May 1, 2012 Author Report Share Posted May 1, 2012 With the CNC machine cutting bodies is about positioning on the table. I don't have a vacuum system yet so I have to use blanks big enough to have guide pins and screws hold them. This doesn't mean the top has to be that big. So here I positioned the top so that when we cut it out we don't miss.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RestorationAD Posted May 1, 2012 Author Report Share Posted May 1, 2012 Control cavity on CNC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RestorationAD Posted May 1, 2012 Author Report Share Posted May 1, 2012 Bridge pickup on CNC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RestorationAD Posted May 1, 2012 Author Report Share Posted May 1, 2012 While the machine is cutting the body I can work on the neck. Flamed padauk fretboard on the padauk neck should look pretty cool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RestorationAD Posted May 1, 2012 Author Report Share Posted May 1, 2012 At least I got the top positioned right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RestorationAD Posted May 1, 2012 Author Report Share Posted May 1, 2012 Looks pretty good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RestorationAD Posted May 1, 2012 Author Report Share Posted May 1, 2012 The top joint looks tight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RestorationAD Posted May 1, 2012 Author Report Share Posted May 1, 2012 A quick look at the rough cut body with a bit of naptha to see the flame. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottR Posted May 1, 2012 Report Share Posted May 1, 2012 I love the little X in the figure that will be hidden by the bridge. Is the occasional fuzzy edge left by your CNC pissing you off any? Obviously it creates no problem (or very little problem), but you have always struck me as someone that loves pricision and clean cuts even when they are just steps on the way to a finished product. SR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RestorationAD Posted May 1, 2012 Author Report Share Posted May 1, 2012 I love the little X in the figure that will be hidden by the bridge. Is the occasional fuzzy edge left by your CNC pissing you off any? Obviously it creates no problem (or very little problem), but you have always struck me as someone that loves precision and clean cuts even when they are just steps on the way to a finished product. SR I like clean cuts but the fuzzy edges are not really bothering me... until I get a bigger CNC machine I can not make full depth climb cuts so I just have to live with the fuzzy edges. The fact I am saving a day everytime one of these comes off the machine makes me happy. The trick is to be very careful cleaning them up as not to round them over or cause a splinter to pop out of the top. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pauliemc Posted May 2, 2012 Report Share Posted May 2, 2012 Lookin realy good Rad. You seem to be getting the hang of RoboRad fairly easily. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RestorationAD Posted May 2, 2012 Author Report Share Posted May 2, 2012 Lookin realy good Rad. You seem to be getting the hang of RoboRad fairly easily. Learning AutoCAD sucks... CamBam has had a learning curve as well but it has been easier. I really want a Linux solution for AutoCAD but have yet to find one that is as powerful and free. The Computer part has been easy... I mean I have been working with/on computers since the days of commodore64 and apple II so the computer part comes natural. The 2.5D stuff is pretty easy. Once you figure out your drawings and your cam software it is straight forward. You set your depth and tell it to create the toolpath. gcode is simply a bunch of movement commands followed by plots points so it is easy to understand. Simple advice. Machines and computers understand arcs and straight lines better than splines. The 3D stuff on the other hand is tough. Getting the toolpathing figured out has proven challenging. Granted I have not been working on it recently as the 2.5D stuff is serving its purpose. But by the end of the year I need to be able to pull a body off the machine and do some touch up carving and sanding... instead of rough carving, finish carving, and sanding. Same with my necks... I have some drawing done with neck surfaces but haven't been able to get the toolpathing right. The other thing that takes some getting used to is cutting like a machine not a human. The machine can't feel the wood so it doesn't understand how to take a shallow pass then get the clean up in the last pass until you tell it to. It took me a whole day to figure out humbucker routes... I thought I could just cut them out. Don't get me started on climb cuts and Z-axis flex... <- thanks Mikro and Doug for all the help on that stuff The machine is faster and more accurate than me but it only does what I tell it to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pauliemc Posted May 3, 2012 Report Share Posted May 3, 2012 The machine is faster and more accurate than me but it only does what I tell it to. True. But you only need to tell it what to do correctly once. then it replicates its own work over & over & over for years on end. Was hoping to go get a programable paulie (CNC) this week, but the car ate itself & I have to replace that instead. Screw it, ill get one in november Cant wait to see a finish over that top. should be absolute porn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avengers63 Posted May 3, 2012 Report Share Posted May 3, 2012 I take it you haven't had much luck programming it to do a carve yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RestorationAD Posted May 3, 2012 Author Report Share Posted May 3, 2012 True. But you only need to tell it what to do correctly once. then it replicates its own work over & over & over for years on end. Was hoping to go get a programable paulie (CNC) this week, but the car ate itself & I have to replace that instead. Screw it, ill get one in november Cant wait to see a finish over that top. should be absolute porn Right that is why it is starting to catch up to me... it is great so far and I don't want to go without one anymore but it is a luxury. As for finish on this one. This piece is older left over from 2 years ago and it has really darkened up. Not sure what finish I am going to use on it. I have sworn off spraying this year as it was a PITA and time consuming last year. But I am not sure oil will be enough protection for this top. I am really going to have to think about the finish for this one. I don't really want to tru-oil it but without spraying I am having a hard time coming up with a good finish. Maybe oil followed up with a varnish top coat... Maybe a brush on finish... I know Simo has done some amazing basses with brush on finishes. I may just say F it spray it with Nitro (it is my favorite finish) I just hate all the sanding and buffing... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottR Posted May 3, 2012 Report Share Posted May 3, 2012 You guys need to teach these robots how to sand and buff. It's probably not beyond the realm of possibility..... SR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RestorationAD Posted May 3, 2012 Author Report Share Posted May 3, 2012 You guys need to teach these robots how to sand and buff. It's probably not beyond the realm of possibility..... SR With time and money we can do anything... I would rather get a reliable finishing guy and ship them out (or quit my real job and build guitars full time in the process destroy any hopes of retiring to the islands and living drunk on a beach for the remainder of my life....). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MzI Posted May 3, 2012 Report Share Posted May 3, 2012 Going back to the 3d carve on the CNC, its really not that hard. All the work is in the 3d modeling. When I had access to a CNC in college I used Rhino 3d for the design of the carved top and then exported that into MasterCam to create the tool path. The one pictured below wasn't a crazy carve but I pulled it off the mill and didn't need to sand the top at all. I set the tool passes fairly close together and traded that for the time it took to carve the guitar top which was around 3 hours. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pauliemc Posted May 4, 2012 Report Share Posted May 4, 2012 Not sure what finish I am going to use on it. I have sworn off spraying this year as it was a PITA and time consuming last year. But I am not sure oil will be enough protection for this top. I am really going to have to think about the finish for this one. I sometimes Dip bodies. if you have enough finish its easy. I use poly from Behlen. I pour a tin of poly into a rectangular container if im going to be using it, as I never brush anymore, I prefer to use a roller. So the flat sides of the rectangualr container work great. BUT, if there is enough poly in there I will sometimes just emerse the body into it & then let it hang & the excess clear run off. You still have to do a little sanding with the orbital between dips & for final buffing but fook it. If the initial application only takes 20 seconds for a good coat I dont care. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RestorationAD Posted May 4, 2012 Author Report Share Posted May 4, 2012 Going back to the 3d carve on the CNC, its really not that hard. All the work is in the 3d modeling. When I had access to a CNC in college I used Rhino 3d for the design of the carved top and then exported that into MasterCam to create the tool path. The one pictured below wasn't a crazy carve but I pulled it off the mill and didn't need to sand the top at all. I set the tool passes fairly close together and traded that for the time it took to carve the guitar top which was around 3 hours. So the issue is time and that I don't have MasterCAM yet. I am not planning on purchasing any CAM software until next year. Right now I am learning to use PyCAM to see if I can get it to tool path what I want. CamBAm can do 3d toolpathing as well but I haven't taken the time to sit down and do it. I have 16 guitars to build this year... I sometimes Dip bodies. Not a bad idea... a bucket of Nitro would be awesome. hmmmm... expensive first investment but an idea just the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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