eddiewarlock Posted January 28, 2013 Report Share Posted January 28, 2013 Hi guys, i have this doubt over some timber. See, soon i'll move out to Spain, and i want to keep building guitars there. Last christmas i was there and i know where they sell wood like wenge, maple, alder, ash, etc. I would love to make an axe with a maple neck and alder wings as those woods are unavailable in Venezuela. Now, i don't know if the maple they sell is rock maple or soft maple. If it was soft maple, would it be suitable for guitar necks? Not because of hardness, as we already know mahogany and spanish cedar are softer woods, but stability wise? I like to laminate my necks anyways, 3 pieces. Same question for european maple? Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prostheta Posted January 28, 2013 Report Share Posted January 28, 2013 It's not that much softer' plus hardness does not always directly equate to stiffness. You'll have no problems! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guitar2005 Posted January 28, 2013 Report Share Posted January 28, 2013 "Soft" maple, or what they refer to as "Silver Leaf" maple is actually quite hard. I've used it on neck many times. The color has a greyish hue to it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eddiewarlock Posted January 28, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 28, 2013 these are some pictures of necks i made with some maple i bought in Spain. They couldn't tell me what kind of maple it was, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eddiewarlock Posted January 28, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 28, 2013 a neck and guitar body i made... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
verhoevenc Posted January 28, 2013 Report Share Posted January 28, 2013 My Marlin acoustic that just won GOTM has a soft maple neck. It works just fine. I put carbon fiber 1/4" rods in all my necks though. But I've seen soft maple necks without 'um too. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
demonx Posted January 28, 2013 Report Share Posted January 28, 2013 Soft Maple is still harder than Mahogany if that helps put things in perspective. As said above you'll have no problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eddiewarlock Posted January 28, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 28, 2013 my main concern is having a warped neck... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
killemall8 Posted January 29, 2013 Report Share Posted January 29, 2013 Soft Maple is still harder than Mahogany if that helps put things in perspective. As said above you'll have no problem. You beat me to it. People assume because there is "soft" in the name, that it is literally soft. I have used soft maple for years for a lot of things. Why would it just randomly "warp"? There is no reason for it to just warp unless it isnt dry first. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eddiewarlock Posted January 29, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 29, 2013 i don't mind it being "softer" like i've said, i've used spanish cedar which is softer than maple, like mahogany. There are certain woods, that even properly dried, when cut into a guitar profile will become unstable and warp, move sideways, or whatever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
demonx Posted January 29, 2013 Report Share Posted January 29, 2013 Ok - lets put it in numbers for you then, when talking density, the Hard rock Maple is 730 ADD, the softer varieties are 720 ADD. So they're basically the same. To compare to other common tonewoods African Mahogany approx 700 Spanish cedar since you mentioned it is around 500 (not enough for me to consider using it for a neck) Padauk - 800 Ebony - 1100 Indian Rosewood - 850 I hope that helps put things in perspective Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eddiewarlock Posted January 29, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 29, 2013 Spanish cedar works well as a neck wood. Ruokangas uses it, and has been used for decades as a neck wood for classical guitars. I've used on several guitars and it's fantastic. Just like working with mahogany, but ( it was) cheaper, even higher quality, and it smells fantastic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
demonx Posted January 29, 2013 Report Share Posted January 29, 2013 The only neck I've made where I afterwards said I'd never use that timber for a neck again was Huon, which is rated around the 520 - so same ballpark as your cedar. Lots of Aussie luthiers use Huon as a neck so I thought I'd try it. I just find it too soft. Carved like magic, looks phenominal, smelt like lemon rind, absolutely beautifully scented timber - however I wont go down to that level of density again. Just offering my opinion. You don't have to follow it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattia Posted January 29, 2013 Report Share Posted January 29, 2013 Euro Maple is the 'premium' back/side/neck wood for Archtops and violin family instruments. It's not as hard as rock maple, often looks nicer (creamier/whiter, less yellow) and is more pleasant to work with. Most Maple in Europe is imported from the US, at least the cheaper stuff, and is usually eastern (acer microphylla). Euro maple is available but is generally more expensive. Same sort of situation with Walnut (Black US is cheaper, European more expensive). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
verhoevenc Posted January 29, 2013 Report Share Posted January 29, 2013 How hard it is or how dense it is aren't really the only figures you're interested in. You're also interested in it's moment or modulus of elasticity. Essentially, how much will it bow under pressure. Here's some figures from www.wood-database.com Soft Maple (Big Leaf): 10 GPA Hard Maple: 12.62 GPA Honduran Mohog: 9.56 GPA Spanish Cedar: 9.23 GPA Padauk: 11.72 GPA EIRW: 12.28 GPA So, soft maple is still stiffer than mahogany. It appears Spanish cedar is stiffer than I generally thought too. I would probably limit myself to woods over 9 though. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guitar2005 Posted January 29, 2013 Report Share Posted January 29, 2013 Being from Canada, we consider "Silver" maple as "Soft" like I stated earlier in this thread. The "Rock" maple is from the sugar maple. There are other varieties but where I live, those are the two main ones. We also have red leaf maple. The soft maple is definitely softer and you can feel it just by touching it, shaping, sanding it. Here's a good explanation of the different kinds (box elder is NOT maple BTW): http://www.wood-data...and-soft-maple/ You'll see that the on the Janka Hardness scale, the rock maple clocks in at close to 1500 while the silver (soft) maple is approx 700. That's a big difference. I personally prefer the rock maple because of the nice color it has and tight grain. The softer maples can ve very nice as well and you're more likely to find flame maple in those species. Birdseye maple tends to happen more in the rock maple. In terms of stability, I haven't really noticed a difference. I always select my wood with no grain runout along the length of the neck and I often laminate. For the grain direction, I try to select as much as possible either parrallel or perpendicular to the fretboard. If you going to use the softer maple for fretboards, use a sealer as the pores are slightly more open. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westhemann Posted January 29, 2013 Report Share Posted January 29, 2013 box elder is NOT maple BT Wrong..it is in the family Acer and is therefore by definition a maple tree.That is exactly the kind of misinformation that a little reading on your part could fix..hell,your own link tells you it is and it is on scale with other softer varieties..as well as every other professional wood description site.Don't be a maple snob http://en.wikipedia....ki/Acer_negundo However,it is softer by far than "soft" (bigleaf)maple...just being in the maple family doesn't mean it is suitable for necks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eddiewarlock Posted January 29, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 29, 2013 well...i am still not sure. Still waiting to see what i can find in Spain, but sure as hell they won't know the difference between the maple species. I have here in Venezuela a purpleheart blank i might use for that project, but i wanted to use it in a guitar with a translucent finish, not an opaque one, as i have built many guitars with purplheart but it doesn't show. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eddiewarlock Posted January 29, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 29, 2013 I might use as well the neck to the right ( the one in the middle is spanish cedar) Does it look like hard maple to you? any thoughts? i also became worried after seeing a neck Doug is selling, 5 piece neck and it is warped. I thought you avoided warping by laminating... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westhemann Posted January 29, 2013 Report Share Posted January 29, 2013 I thought you avoided warping by laminating... It helps but it isn't a foolproof system...I don't care what you do you'll sometimes have something move on you.Stop worrying and start building. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
killemall8 Posted January 29, 2013 Report Share Posted January 29, 2013 I personally prefer the rock maple because of the nice color it has and tight grain. The softer maples can ve very nice as well and you're more likely to find flame maple in those species. Birdseye maple tends to happen more in the rock maple. I have some rock maple and soft maple here side by side, and they are identical. You would never be able to tell the difference from a visual aspect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westhemann Posted January 29, 2013 Report Share Posted January 29, 2013 Besides that,quilt is more often found in soft maples,flame and birdseye is more often in rock maple... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prostheta Posted January 29, 2013 Report Share Posted January 29, 2013 Doesn't Rock Maple have blotching issues when you dye it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
killemall8 Posted January 29, 2013 Report Share Posted January 29, 2013 Depending on which way it is cut. Usually only when its flat sawn. But i have had that problem even worse on soft maple too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guitar2005 Posted January 29, 2013 Report Share Posted January 29, 2013 box elder is NOT maple BT Wrong..it is in the family Acer and is therefore by definition a maple tree.That is exactly the kind of misinformation that a little reading on your part could fix..hell,your own link tells you it is and it is on scale with other softer varieties..as well as every other professional wood description site.Don't be a maple snob http://en.wikipedia....ki/Acer_negundo However,it is softer by far than "soft" (bigleaf)maple...just being in the maple family doesn't mean it is suitable for necks. The Box Elder is, for some, an odd variety of Acer, still, not a real Maple tree if you ask some experts ... hehehe. Yes, I do know my Maple trees. We have tons of them around here. I even have one of these "Box Elders" in my backyard. These trees are a pest as they grow fast, anywhere and everywhere, causing problems most of the time, so much so that some cities have banned them and destroy them in certain areas. The branches break easily and when you look at the wood, its very white, often with red streaks. It is mentioned in my own link, yes, but not everything you read on the 'net is 100% true. If a lumber store sold you this wood as maple, they would be screwing you, period. In my experience, it is softer than "soft" maple; is some cases, closer to poplar IMO but it also depends on where the piece of wood comes from in the tree and where / how the tree has grown (kinda like Ash/Swamp Ash). The Janka rating for poplar is approx 500. That link I provided has some errors in it for sure. If you would care to do some research, Wes, you'd find that it is in fact not a proper acer but most of the internet data for it is in french, not english. Some botanists call it Negundo aceroides http://en.wikipedia....ki/Acer_negundo Some people also refer to it as "Ash Maple", but again, it is not Maple, nor Ash. Do you know what makes a tree part of the Acer family or not? Many botanists do not consider this tree to be an Acer family tree. It was mistakenly put into the "acer" family by french immigrants to the USA/Canada (more specifically, Illinois) in the XIX'th century because the seeds looked like maple seeds. You can also look for "Erable à Giguère" and "Manitoba Maple" if you're interested in learning more about these trees. If the internet is your primary source of information, you might be dissapointed as there isn't much info on this tree. I hope this helps and that it didn't take this thread too far off course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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