Help: Smooth Varnish/lacquer Finish?

[moy]

Hi there,

First up and I'm a bit of a novice, thought I have previously done a paint job on a les paul to make a replica of Zakk Wylde's Rebel guitar (burnt, bottlecaps n'all) - which looks pretty decent! I've now acquired a Danelectro DC59 which was maroon and came with a nasty hole in the body.

I repaired the hole in the body and have resprayed the guitar matt black (nice and smooth) and now I've got to the stage where I need to varnish/lacquer the guitar - which is proving a bit trickier than I'd hoped for!

When I did my previous guitar, which was red/white/blue. After painting, I applied several coats of Plastikote clear acrylic (matt) spray to the body, which seemed to do the job really well. But the finish on this guitar doesn't appear as smooth and there seems to be a bit of an 'orange peel' effect on it. This guitar is a matt black finish (Halfords spray paint) which I guess is a lot less forgiving and shows up any blemishes a lot more.

As well as the Plastikote, another varnish I have and have tried is a can of Dulux clear matt varnish spray. This seemed to leave more of a speckled finish. Note: between using the Plastikote and Dulux, I have sanded back and even respray the guitar so I wasn't mixing the two.

From what I've read the trick to get rid of this is after applying the lacquer/varnish, sand the body with wet & dry paper and then use steel wool to smooth it out. And repeat a few times. I've done this with 400 grit wet & dry paper, then wiped down/dried the body and then went over it with some fine steel wool. The finish does feel lovely and smooth but it does have lots of small scratches on the body (image attached). I'm going to buy some 0000 steel wool from town just incase what I have is a little too heavy but I'm not sure if I'll end up with the same result?

The scratches do look worse in the attached image, the spot light really emphasises them. In reality you do have to have it in your hands to see the find marks.

I'm not apposed to sanding down the finish and applying another coat of matt black paint and varnishing again ...but I've already done this! And I'm a bit concerned I'll end up with the same result and it'll be a never ending circle and I'll never get it finished!

I'd really appreciate some help on this if anyone can and I'll get back to you with any extra information you need.

Thanks in advance,

Ste

[demonx]

First of all, welcome to the forum.

Sounds like you're using rattle can finishes of some type, I dont have a whole lot of experience with those so I'll leave that for the guys who have, however, 400 grit sounds pretty harsh to be sanding back paint.

[moy]

Hi and thanks!

Yeah thats right. I'm not against using another method just it worked ok on my last guitar (mind I was burning it so it didn't really matter ). When I brushed on varnish on the last one I ended up with hundreds of tiny bubbles with every brush stroke covering the guitar after a fair bit of time they hadn't disappeared so I was worried this would set into the guitar so I rubbed it all out and someone recommended Plastikote spray.

It could well be 400 grit wet & dry is a bit to harsh, I'll check it is 400 when I get home, but when I was buying some its packaging did say "fine" :/

[MiKro]

wet sand with 600, 800, 1200, 1500, 2000. then polish. Or get some micro mesh. By wet sand I do not mean soaking wet, just a spritz or two of of a wetting agent, as needed to keep the material from loading in the paper. clean as needed and often. Your goal is to removw e the largere sratches until they diminish to the point that you can polish.

MK

[ScottR]

Yeah, the scratches I see in the pic are from your sandpaper. You get rid of them by going to higher and higher grits in sequence, up to 1500 or 2000 in wet sanding paper....to even buffing and polishing compound if you want them to disappear under the lights.

But......that is also going to make your matte finish awfully shiny in the process.

I think the only way you are going to get the matte finish without the scratches is to spray it and leave it alone.

SR

[moy]

Thanks for the responses guys.

Sounds like I need to get myself to the DIY shop and get some more wet & dry paper with varying grits as the stuff I have (although it says "fine"), is much too heavy. What would you recommend for buffing and polishing compound - so I can take a look.

Scott, I was half thinking of just spray painting it again and leaving it without varnish/lacquer. Obviously it won't be as protected without a lacquered finish but it should hold up pretty good - is there anything else I can do after the spray painting for the surface, or should I just leave it altogether?

I think I'll give it a shot with the higher grits to see if it gets any better first, as I'll need to re-paint it aways. If nothing else it will be good practice for any future projects I do.

Thanks again for all the help so far!

[RestorationAD]

One last point.

Don't sand until the finish is hard.

With rattle cans that means a few extra days.

[ScottR]

Scott, I was half thinking of just spray painting it again and leaving it without varnish/lacquer. Obviously it won't be as protected without a lacquered finish but it should hold up pretty good - is there anything else I can do after the spray painting for the surface, or should I just leave it altogether?

Nothing wrong with that at all, paint has been used as a finish for centuries. I have little experience with matte finishes, but I do know that anything you do to the surface of it will change the appearance. So that tells me you need to paint it- as you have done, level it - as you are doing, then paint it again- carefully- and call it done. It would be easier to get a good job of that with spray equipment. With rattle cans you will likely need to go lightly until you get there.

Anyone with rattle can matte finish experience, feel free to contradict me here, I'm going with what I would do, not what I have done.

SR

[crazygtr]

My experience with rattle cans is that it takes ages for the finish to get hard, if you don't spray light coats with ample time to dry between coats and/or go too heavy, they won't cure at all.

[moy]

Thanks for all the advice!

Sounds like there nothing wrong with just spraying the matt paint finish on and not varnishing/lacquering at all.

Out of interest, I applied another coat of varnish spray over the finish in the picture I attached in my original message - which did get rid of the scratches so I can start again. But I took another picture (at the bottom of the reply), which will show you the finish the Dulux clear matt spray leaves on the finish - lots of spots!

Crazily I can't seem to get anything higher than 400 grit wet & dry in Newcastle, total lack of DIY shows - no idea where they've all gone! But seeing as I've varnished it again I may as well buy some different variations of wet and dry paper online and give it ago sanding through 600 > 800 > 1000 > 1500 > 2000.

Failing that ....buy another can of matt black spray paint, redo the paint job and just leave it alone?

[moy]

Can't believe how difficult its turned out to be to get a selection of higher grit wet and dry paper. And because there isn't any 'mix' packs, to buy each grit in a pack could turn out to be costly for what its for - and mightn't give the desired look. If I can't get sheets of wet and dry individually I think I'd be best of going at it with what I have until its smooth, then just respraying it.

A quick question. What would happen if I just sanding it with 600, then 1500 - I know its a jump and would take much longer but would it still leave the marks. Or are all the other grits purely there as it would take forever otherwise?

Thanks again!

[ScottR]

Each grit leaves scratches corresponding to the size of the abrasive. The purpose of going through the grits is to remove (sand to the depth of) the scratches left be the preceeding grit and leave smaller, shallower scratches.......with the ultimate goal being scratches small enough to be invisible to the naked eye. With enough time, patience, stamina and paper, it could be done with the 1500. So your last sentence is technically true.

SR

[guitar2005]

Another point (or two).

Make sure you have a smooth surface to apply the paint on. On one of those pictures, I can see some defects under the paint. Fix that, then paint.

The other thing is that as you go higher in grit as you're sanding/levelling the finish, apply gentle pressure and let the paper do the work.

[supplebanana]

Moy, you in the UK? If so I'm only about 30 miles south of you. Don't bother with DIY shops - you want Car Paint dealers or if you're pushed try Halfords.

[Prostheta]

Yes....like most rattlecans, Halfords' should be ditched when they get to about a quarter full. The lack of pressure causes them to spit.

As for the clear, shop around for "2k in a can". You can pick them up on eBay or preferably a local stockist if you are lucky. These have a separate compartment to the lacquer which you combine by pressing a pin on the bottom of the aerosol using the lid or whatever. This is by far the best clear short of using pro auto paint with a gun, compressor, etc. Search for "2k aerosol".

Since you are burying the colour under a clear, most very minor imperfections can be hidden. That means any scratches below 600 grit generally. Halfords sell packs of wet n' dry papers.

The best bet with spraying Halfords colours is not to try and lay it on thick. If it takes three sessions two hours apart to do one "obscuring" coat, maybe that is too much but is certainly better than one can in a session! You have to remember that you are not going to get anything near a proper finish straight from the can (or even from the gun) and hammering it on will just extend your drying time massively....sometimes to the point where solvents can't escape from underneath leaving a dry skin floating on gummy paint!

Oh, Lesonal do a 2k in a can:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Lesonal-2K-HS-Extra-Clear-RTS-400ml-/261180607889?pt=UK_Body_Shop_Supplies_Paint&hash=item3ccf93cd91

Pricey but seriously....this stuff bridges that difference and is totally worth it!

[Prostheta]

Perhaps worth considering, but with the Lesonal you have a top notch product.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2K-aerosol-Spraymax-Gloss-Lacquer-Clear-Coat-Spray-400ml-art-no-2680061-/261280231583?pt=UK_Body_Shop_Supplies_Paint&hash=item3cd583f09f

[moy]

Thanks for all the help.

I'm going to sand down the finish then paint it again. I have been using Halford's for my spraypaint supplebanana and its been working great! But your right Prostheta, though mine haven't 'spat' too much. I've noticed more inconsistent colouring and it seems a bit more 'patchy'.

Quick question, would black matt en enamel paint make a different? I gather its harder wearing or would it really not make a difference - or would it wreck it!

That "2k in a can" looks interesting! Maybe once I've painted it again I'll give it a look, unless people think the enamel will give a hard enough finish?

[Prostheta]

Quick answer - steer well clear of enamel!

If you had no choice but to use off-the-shelf stuff from Halfords then I would grab one tin of high-build primer, one tin of grey primer, one tin of black gloss. Buy the 2k off eBay.

Sand the body up to 320 grit. Wipe with a damp cloth to highlight any problem areas, sand back any raised grain and fix the problem areas.

Spray the body with light coats of high build primer (usually yellow). Each layer should not go on thick and wet, equally it should not go on like dust. One layer should consist of equal overlapping passes and does not necessarily have to be a complete obscuring coat. Let this layer dry for an hour, add one more layer. Repeat for three layers total. These three layers should obscure the wood. If the second coat did this, you might want to give the primer more time to cure.

Short of a proper grain filler, this helps - but does not prevent - subsequent layers sinking into the pores. If you can get ahold of a good grain filler (Brummer rub-in powdered grain filler is excellent - somebody in the UK mail me some!) it will obviate this step and produce a better result.

Once this cheap nasty method of grain filling (or proper method if you used proper stuff) is throughly dry, sand it flat with a good quality 320 grit paper. As long as this filled any pores, grain lines, etc. you are good. Large sandthroughs are fine because this priming is not meant to provide cover. This initial layer should make the body more or less flat.

Repeat this with the grey primer. This should go on much flatter from the can. Burnish this primer with 0000 steel wool to knock off any nibs, dust or whatever. This layer is what will tell you whether the final finish will be good or not. If this is not flat, neither will your colour or clear.

Presuming the primer is flat, lay on coats of colour using the not-wet not-dry not-obscuring-all-at-once approach until you have consistent coverage. When cured (as long as possible, a week is great) you can wet sand this with a little dish soap and water to 600 grit. This should make it perfect.

You can then clean the surface with a tack rag, a clean cloth with butane or whatever and prepare to clear it with 2k. This stuff requires a LOT of ventilation. The safety warnings are no joke and in my opinion don't tell you how deadly this stuff is to your brain and nervous system. Grab a respirator with an organic cartridge (cheapy blue one with two cans either side works) and if you can smell the paint through this then STOP.

Spray overlapping medium wet coats, half an hour to an hour apart until the can is empty. These don't last more than 24hrs or so when mixed up. Let the 2k cure for a week in a ventilated area. Seriously.

This is the cheapy way to get a good finish from a can. I did this on my 7-string Sabre. Done properly (practice on scrap is good if you can afford it) you can get a tough high gloss finish that will wet sand and buff up like glass.

[demonx]

That was your quick answer?! Hahahaha

[LightninMike]

As a tip for rattle cans:

Shake them up per the instructions, THEN place them in a pan of hot (not boiling) water for a few minutes and shake again

Spatter will be non-existent and it will spray evenly

[moy]

Thanks I'll try that hot water tip!

So whats the deal with the enamel, is that a totally different finish to a 'normal' black spray paint? Is it a bumpier/gritty finish or should it be just as smooth in theory?

[crazygtr]

Thanks I'll try that hot water tip!

So whats the deal with the enamel, is that a totally different finish to a 'normal' black spray paint? Is it a bumpier/gritty finish or should it be just as smooth in theory?

My experience with enamel is that it never dries.

[Prostheta]

Yeah, plus it reacts with more things than as not. Very unfriendly stuff. Okay for the one purpose for which it is originally intended though.

[moy]

Sound advice!

Well I'm going to sand the guitar down (again) this weekend to get it nice and smooth. Then I'll prime the guitar.

When spraying the colour on, you mention the "not-wet not-dry not-obscuring-all-at-once approach" (love that), If I went from top to bottom of the guitar, with a light coat (not covering everything). How long should I leave it until another coat, just as it says on the tin?

Also, how long should I leave between the primer and the coat of paint?

Thanks again for all the help!

[Prostheta]

Half an hour to an hour I guess. You just want the solvents from the layers to be able to gas off which they cannot do if you hammer on a thick coat or layer several on in the space of a few minutes. That's what will result in a sticky plastic layer.

Realistically this is just to get something reasonable from these Halfords cans. I know they're chock full of solvent so you have to work with that. Also, warming up the can doesn't help with spitting from the last quarter. That is just low pressure. Also, do clean the nozzle between sessions (upend can, spray till clear) as buildup can exacerbate spitting.