One-piece Guitar

[Prostheta]

Well, given that we're bassists Jon....

*cough*

[Cherryburst]

IIRC, ebony is actually a fairly "dead" wood compared to most....

Really? Never heard that one. So given a choice between hard maple vs ebony for a fretboard (forget rosewood for a second) might maple be the better choice? (over ebony)

[Daniel Sorbera]

IIRC, ebony is actually a fairly "dead" wood compared to most....

Really? Never heard that one. So given a choice between hard maple vs ebony for a fretboard (forget rosewood for a second) might maple be the better choice? (over ebony)

Maple is different, not better or worse.

[Prostheta]

Obviously ebony isn't lead-dead, but perhaps not as warm or round-sounding something like rosewood etc. That's where I was coming from. I've used ebony in neck laminates and apart from the inhuman stiffness, it does seem to impart a tight "close" sound if you see what I mean.

[WezV]

this is on the gallery hardwoods website and i seem to remember it being built from one peice of ziracote but cant find the info on it now

http://www.galleryhardwoods.com/showyours/dpmasunder2.jpg

That would be a very expensive pice of wood!! I asked larry about ziracote neck blanks once and that was pretty prohibitive.

[WezV]

just found some back pictures to proove its one piece at the bottom of this page;

http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.p...5167&page=8

Although if i was doing it i would have found a way to hide a join is some of that great ziracote grain .

[SoundAt11]

I don't find Limba to be any brighter than Mahogany, just a little clearer and resonant (sometimes, Mahogany sounds more stiff and compressed to me).

I say go with the 1pc guitar idea. I've wanted to do this for a while. Alternatively, you could glue 2 pieces side-by side and be able to route your wiring channel on the inside of the joint before gluing it up.

Main things to look for:

Recessed or Flat-Mount bridge, due to the fretboard not being very high off the body.

If you go with one piece, you'd need to drill your wiring holes creatively. My suggestion:

Drill from the end strap hole all the way to the neck pickup cavity. Then connect your bridge pickup cavity to your control cavity by drilling from your jack location.

Go with Quartersawn wood to make sure it stays stable.

I am sorry I won't go with this idea. Looks a bit "too much" to begin with. But hey SoundAt11, aren't you an eBay seller ?

No need for the rolling eyes icon.

I've build a neck-thru with a recessed tunomatic, a 1-piece guitar would be less work as there's no joining involved. In fact, I posted the idea of a 2-piece guitar (ie 2 long wide boards joined down the center) as one of my first forum posts years ago and was shot down by everyone.

And no, I don't consider my post a conflict of interest as yes, I do sell wood on eBay, but no, I do not have any Limba (or any wood) large enough for a 1-piece guitar. More customers buy Mahogany than Maple, Limba, or Basswood and I personally have 4 mahogany guitar bodies of my own, so I'm not just shilling product.

Limba is better, on average, and costs the same.

Quartersawn wood is the best bet for a neck and if you can find light enough pieces, is the choice for bodies (flatsawn being second choice).

[SoundAt11]

It can be done, but it's a pain in the butt to build, and offers no real benefits. Your sustain won't be any better than a well done neck through or set neck. The only possible advantage to it is bragging rights and cosmetics (and even than you could build a neck through or set neck that looks just as good or better).

It's an interesting idea (one which I had when I started building) but doesn't really hold water.

If you want to talk about insane, I was going to build a 1 piece (including fingerboard) out of wenge That would have been, oh, about 20 pounds

I did have a customer request an 18 x 40 x 2 slab of Purpleheart for a 1-piece guitar. Thankfully, I didn't have it. That boatanchor would have weighed 20 lbs easy and the slab would be 40lbs.

I did sell a 16.5 x 41 x 1.75 slab of Mahogany for this, though, so that fellow either has a 1pc guitar or a big piece of firewood :-)

I still stand by the idea that it's less work (no joining, clamping, gluing, planing, etc). Just bandsaw your entire guitar body and neck shape.

Recessing the bridge would be no biggie, just leave about 1/4" poking out from the top to clear the fretboard height and raise the saddles as necessary.

One of these days, I'll build a 1pc Les Paul, for the sake of bragging rights and the fact that it makes sense from a building/tone perspective.

[GregP]

The term "makes sense" is entirely subjective. To me, a one-piece guitar makes no sense-- from a building perspective, there are problems introduced along with the problems alleviated (so on the whole, no net gain)... and from a tone perspective there's just no actual justification. Tone "voodoo" doesn't qualify as evidence.

Might be able to get some 'bragging rights', though. A one-piece of the right wood has the potential to be awfully slick.

[Nicko_Lps]

All i know is that to produce a good tone you have to mix different woods,

glues sure kill the sound because they act like a car suspension and they absorb the sound that is transfered inside the wood fibers.

But there are many glues and many ways to joint.If you press wood with small clamps the glue you add on the surface is a thick layer that STILL stays in the joint.

If you could find a hydraulic press you can prevent the loss,mine can press up to 500kilos pre sq cm that means if you press a 22 fret fretboard(46 cm x 6 cm[276 sq cm])on the neck with 100 kilos that i have used you get a 27,6 tonn on the fretboard wood if its not shaped at the bottom and curved at the top.that in some way cause the woods to be like one and the glue that remains lies on the pore of the wood and its not a thick layer between them.

Also please try not to bealive that the wood can crack because when i glued the maple top on the mahogany i used 250 kilos per sq cm.

So try not to waste the natures pores for a one-piece guitar.

Cheers!

[GregP]

A glued joint surely does not act like a car suspension.

[WezV]

and surely too much pressure will result in a starved glue joint!

type of glue is an obvious factor!!!

[westhemann]

All i know is that to produce a good tone you have to mix different woods,

glues sure kill the sound because they act like a car suspension and they absorb the sound that is transfered inside the wood fibers.

But there are many glues and many ways to joint.If you press wood with small clamps the glue you add on the surface is a thick layer that STILL stays in the joint.

If you could find a hydraulic press you can prevent the loss,mine can press up to 500kilos pre sq cm that means if you press a 22 fret fretboard(46 cm x 6 cm[276 sq cm])on the neck with 100 kilos that i have used you get a 27,6 tonn on the fretboard wood if its not shaped at the bottom and curved at the top.that in some way cause the woods to be like one and the glue that remains lies on the pore of the wood and its not a thick layer between them.

Also please try not to bealive that the wood can crack because when i glued the maple top on the mahogany i used 250 kilos per sq cm.

So try not to waste the natures pores for a one-piece guitar.

whu?where is that bad advice picture perry had?

[Nicko_Lps]

A glued joint surely does not act like a car suspension.

A thick layer of glue acts like a car suspension not the joint.

[Jon]

I do not believe there is ever a thick layer of glue in luthiery work.

[rubber314chicken]

2 months old....

[GregP]

A glued joint surely does not act like a car suspension.

A thick layer of glue acts like a car suspension not the joint.

Nah. Most glues tend to get hard. But guitars aren't glued together with a thick layer that acts as a "buffer" between pieces of wood anyhow. So even if glue were that rubbery, that's not how guitar woods are jointed, laminated, etc. So, it's a false analogy.

(all meant in fun )

[spazzyone]

hmmm where to begin?

can this be done....yes

has it been done....yes

will it be done again .....yes

am i doing it....yes

why cause we can (huge access to wood)

problems building ....what problems when you have a 5 axis cnc (though only 3 are used)

total glue used?....less than most people drip on the floor

does it sound or sustain better.....who knows its not finished

but i can say its tap tone is incredible. better than a bolt on body or a neck thru (that depends)

is this topic worth discussion.......id say by the responces no

so why did i post......im bored and retarted

[fryovanni]

A glued joint surely does not act like a car suspension.

A thick layer of glue acts like a car suspension not the joint.

Nah. Most glues tend to get hard. But guitars aren't glued together with a thick layer that acts as a "buffer" between pieces of wood anyhow. So even if glue were that rubbery, that's not how guitar woods are jointed, laminated, etc. So, it's a false analogy.

(all meant in fun )

Good call Greg. Glue joints are not designed to be thick. Some glues such as epoxies are designed to be used a little thicker, but Titebond for instance is not. Starving a glue joint with pressure is not an easy thing to do, but if the joint is sloppy it is possible(end grain sucking up glue and can starve a joint with average pressure). As far as a glue being rubbery. Some glues may not dry as hard as others, but HHG is a glue that you can use if you want a "harder" glue. A larger concern with plastic glues would be creep, but this generally does not pose a problem with properly made joints. I would personally be a little concerned about compressing the wood(not so much as it relates to the join, but crushing the wood itself with extream pressure). The reality is that most glues will achive more than enough strength, and a clean joint with commonly used methods. You will not solve a poorly surfaced or prepaired joint with extream pressure(you are more likely to weaken it). Extream pressure could weaken a glue joint made with epoxy.

Peace,Rich

[Nicko_Lps]

A glued joint surely does not act like a car suspension.

A thick layer of glue acts like a car suspension not the joint.

Nah. Most glues tend to get hard. But guitars aren't glued together with a thick layer that acts as a "buffer" between pieces of wood anyhow. So even if glue were that rubbery, that's not how guitar woods are jointed, laminated, etc. So, it's a false analogy.

(all meant in fun )

Good call Greg. Glue joints are not designed to be thick. Some glues such as epoxies are designed to be used a little thicker, but Titebond for instance is not. Starving a glue joint with pressure is not an easy thing to do, but if the joint is sloppy it is possible(end grain sucking up glue and can starve a joint with average pressure). As far as a glue being rubbery. Some glues may not dry as hard as others, but HHG is a glue that you can use if you want a "harder" glue. A larger concern with plastic glues would be creep, but this generally does not pose a problem with properly made joints. I would personally be a little concerned about compressing the wood(not so much as it relates to the join, but crushing the wood itself with extream pressure). The reality is that most glues will achive more than enough strength, and a clean joint with commonly used methods. You will not solve a poorly surfaced or prepaired joint with extream pressure(you are more likely to weaken it). Extream pressure could weaken a glue joint made with epoxy.

Peace,Rich

fryovanni:

On that i use a glue called urea resin or kaurit leim,

to work with that you must know that when that glue cures completely the left over turns like a piece of stone.

You cant have that glue NOT pressed cause it will not sink in the wood pores and that is bad while jointing with that type of glue,because it has no flexibility unlike the aliphatic resin glues(titebond)and epoxy that have flexibility that is a the tone killer fact.The surface must be flat and flawless,

The pressing machine is flat and cannot cover a mistake that might happen in the surface flattening.

As about a luthier i start now working on a project but as about woods joints glues and techniques im a pro for many years now.

Glues are not getting hard when cured,not all at least and now that titebond is one of them.

I just joined the forum and at my first post,and i see a smart ass pic,conversation is the best thing to do.We can all learn form each other.

Extreme presure will not weaken the joints cause when you press that amont of force the glue inside the joint will be driven out from the joint and the remains of the glue will SINK into the wood grain and that will give a flawless rock-hard invisible joint with a lot LESS tone killing glue.

Anyone that is intrested to see some good articles check this site:techarticles.

I have no idea of what his guitars are sounding like but what he sais on that link are usefull.

Every mind has its own way of thinking.

Whose wrong?Whose right?

Results can say that.

[Jon]

Hmm, I wouldn't list Ed Roman as a credible source for anything but "crazy".

[jmrentis]

Hmm, I wouldn't list Ed Roman as a credible source for anything but "crazy".

+1

Somehow, his ridiculous information is thick on the internet. I know when needing to do my first repair, I found dozens of pages from him and with little knowledge of luthiery at the time, I found his stuff to be mostly bogus and luckily in my search I found this site. This site not only has some good information, but some amazing builders whose stuff would be extremely tough to beat in looks and in structural quality. As stated, do not look to Ed Roman for any type of luthiery information, he tends to make stuff up that makes no sense, in order to sell his products.

I just want to make clear in your post, you say you are just now starting to work on guitars meaning you haven't built a guitar yet or just a few? But you have worked on woods and done joints for many years. I was just curious how you've come to the conclusion that epoxy and glues like titebond, are tone robbing adhesives, when you've only just started building guitars. Thats a pretty bold claim, especially when you look to luthiers around the world and what they prefer. It just seems unlikely that someone who has just started to build guitars has a better understanding and idea than the people that have been doing it all their lives and have individually compared each and every type of glue joint themselves within actual guitars. By all means, woodworking experience is something that is a huge benefit, I only wish that I had more wood experience, but making claims that go against what is done by the most experienced and qualified luthiers seems ridiculous to me and I have such little experience compared to half the people that have responded to your post. J

Edited September 19, 2007 by jmrentis

[Nicko_Lps]

Hmm, I wouldn't list Ed Roman as a credible source for anything but "crazy".

+1

Somehow, his ridiculous information is thick on the internet. I know when needing to do my first repair, I found dozens of pages from him and with little knowledge of luthiery at the time, I found his stuff to be mostly bogus and luckily in my search I found this site. This site not only has some good information, but some amazing builders whose stuff would be extremely tough to beat in looks and in structural quality. As stated, do not look to Ed Roman for any type of luthiery information, he tends to make stuff up that makes no sense, in order to sell his products.

I just want to make clear in your post, you say you are just now starting to work on guitars meaning you haven't built a guitar yet or just a few? But you have worked on woods and done joints for many years. I was just curious how you've come to the conclusion that epoxy and glues like titebond, are tone robbing adhesives, when you've only just started building guitars. Thats a pretty bold claim, especially when you look to luthiers around the world and what they prefer. It just seems unlikely that someone who has just started to build guitars has a better understanding and idea than the people that have been doing it all their lives and have individually compared each and every type of glue joint themselves within actual guitars. By all means, woodworking experience is something that is a huge benefit, I only wish that I had more wood experience, but making claims that go against what is done by the most experienced and qualified luthiers seems ridiculous to me and I have such little experience compared to half the people that have responded to your post. J

Yes you are right but what i say is how i think and how some real luthiers made me think,i visited them saw their work and how they work so i came to those ideas and wrote:

<<<Every mind has its own way of thinking.

Whose wrong?Whose right?

Results can say that.>>>

Seen that?

And as i seem ridiculous to you,you seem ridiculous to me that you call Ed Roman crazy that he has so much more exp. from you....

That means that youre right but you're not better than me you are the same,also it seems that you try to earn someones sympathy in that page.

[GregP]

A more apt analogy would be that the glued joints (if glued properly) are more like welds than springs/suspension. The act is to join the wood together solidly, not tentatively.

The pic was just a joke... Wes was looking for it... Conversation is indeed best, you're right about that. Just make sure that it's not one-sided and that you don't have your opinions so solidly formed that you're not willing to listen to knowledgable peeps and/or logic.

Also... +1 that Ed Roman is a snake-oil salesman and not a credible source.... conversations about him are done to death around here, yet every now and then we see evidence that people are believing what he writes. Your first and best step if you want to start down the path of learning is to ignore everything he says, wholesale. Even if there are grains of truth here or there (I've yet to see any), it's best to just assume everything he says is myth, voodoo, pseudo-science, and BS. Much safer.

[Jon]

...it's best to just assume everything he says is myth, voodoo, pseudo-science, and BS. Much safer.

Better yet, don't assume. Go and research all of the information the guys covers and compare it to actual studies, you will soon find out how full of himself he is. The guitarist in my band worked with Ed Roman years ago at the Jackson factory, he will even agree the guy is a nut job.