Gotm Rules Disscussion

[ProjectGuitar.com]

Just because this thread is here it does not mean the rule's for GOTM will change. Currently they are as follows:

This contest is open to any and all members that enter and will be continued each month for a place showing your creation on the homepage!

The winner(s) of course will have his/her guitar featured on the homepage of Project Guitar.com and if you have a website the picture will link directly to it if you so choose (even commercial site's).

So show us your creation in this thread!

There may be more then one poll to determine winners in different catagorys at the end of this contest!

Please post a maximum of your 4 best pictures per guitar entered

Make sure Your Guitar has a Name or Nick Name as well

That really is a open set of rules as it was ment to be to show the creativity of the membership....

Recently this questions have been posted in the Guitar of the Month threads that raised eyebrows from a few of the members such as:

Jehle:

Is there a rule about how many guitars I can enter? On we go...

and

rhoads56:

Wait a sec.... since when was PG.com's GOTM allowing entries from people who purchased guitars? This was not built by you, but by Shamray guitars. This 'competition' is designed to showcase the members talents, not what they paid someone else to do. It cheapens the entire 'competition'. Otherwise, why dont we see 25 Les Paul's in here every week?

There are a couple of other rules posted which are not quoted above and they are:

Any Post that is not an entry will be deleted, feel free to start a new thread to discuss any guitar entered this month

Which is why I have started this thread.........

and

Make sure Your Guitar has a Name or Nick Name as well

Which has not been totally enforced.

If it was enforced on the GOTM for June entry thread alone the following members entry's would be deleted:

verhoevenc

Jyrki

Hitone - (obviously ment to be named Maverick?)

jukkasil

I'll start the discussion part but not as the Administrator so time to log off and come back as Brian.........

[rhoads56]

My thoughts are:

This is a forum for discussion and promotion of self made guitars, plus modifications, servicing and restorations of purchased pre-made guitars.

Is it cool for manufacturers, especially smaller builders to contribute and enter the GOTM? Yes

Is it cool to use GOTM for promotional purposes, without actively contributing to the greater forum? No (there is an entry from a pro builder in GOTM right now. First post. No other contribution. Nothing.)

Should there be a post limit, before people can enter guitars? Yes, because it will stop builders using it as a sales tool without contributing and helping the forum as a whole. (see above)

Should purchased guitars, with no considerable mods, be allowed to enter GOTM? No. A refinish and new inlay would be cool. A new set of strings and some lemon oil, isnt "your own creation".

Should full time builders be limited? Yes. Seeing the GOTM turn into a free for all from professional builders makes me not want to contribute. This is why you dont see me enter much any more, i think my current entry is the only one in the last 12 months. This forum isnt a place to sell guitars, its a place to help others. I suggest a 'one entry per three months' rule.

[Daniel Sorbera]

Any Post that is not an entry will be deleted, feel free to start a new thread to discuss any guitar entered this month

I totally agree with that one. It needs to be there, or the GOTM thread will get really cluttered really fast.

Make sure Your Guitar has a Name or Nick Name as well

Personally I think this one has to go. I think it's hard for some people to come up with nicknames for their guitars (myself included). So if they don't put a nickname I think it would be best to refer to the guitar by the builders user name.

Is there a rule about how many guitars I can enter? On we go...

I think it should be limited to 1 guitar per person per month. But thats just me.

Wait a sec.... since when was PG.com's GOTM allowing entries from people who purchased guitars? This was not built by you, but by Shamray guitars. This 'competition' is designed to showcase the members talents, not what they paid someone else to do. It cheapens the entire 'competition'. Otherwise, why dont we see 25 Les Paul's in here every week?

I think to enter a guitar into GOTM it needs to have either been built by the poster, or modified in some way.

Now the problem is that it's really hard to judge what counts as modified.

So that there is no miscommunication I think the poster needs to say exactly what parts of the build they did (if they only changed the pickguard, or if they built if form scratch and anything in between)

I think we need to make sure we don't turn GOTM into a "real" contest with tons of rules. It needs to stay fun and friendly or we lose a lot of whats great about this place.

[Brian]

If your going to enter the contest with multiple entry's chances are while overall you could score a total combined number of vote's to win, that doesn't get the winners spot........... I'm leaning towards a limit......

For many members just finishing their first guitar is a challenge to begin with........Should there be more contest's each with different rules such as one for Pro's, one for First Timers and a third for the rest of us?

If somebody enter's a store bought guitar which they do nothing to (no part in design or building), I doubt they stand a chance on the voting poll so I wouldn't worry about it

But! What if they did.........hasn't happened yet but unless there is a rule it doesn't mean it couldn't happen

If you post a guitar which you have designed from top to bottom but had no hand in the actual building it show's your dedication to having your own personal project finished, hence your Project Guitar. I could only speculate that the reason you did not build it yourself is a simple matter of not having the proper tools or work space since not everybody does. Doesn't mean you would get my vote unless it was totally to my liking but then again nobody ever get's my vote because I leave that up to the rest of the forum membership. (my own personal thought on the current guitar questioned in this month's entry thread).

Would changing the rule's from something as simple as they are to more complex eliminate creativity or spawn it?

If they were changed what change's would you make?

Let's keep this going...........

[erikbojerik]

Should there be more contest's each with different rules such as one for Pro's, one for First Timers and a third for the rest of us?

This has been done before and the idea was abandoned after a month or two. I just think GOTM has been flush with entries the last couple of months, I don't see it as a big deal. Personally, I like to measure the progress of my skills against the pro builders.

I think that, as Perry mentioned, if a pro submits a guitar without much of a prior posting history here, the brotherhood recognizes that and a voting bias against that entry tends to happen kind of organically.

I'd say 1 axe per person per month limit.

Submitting a guitar to GOTM that you had no hand in building is lame IMO....I'd say "no".

I'd also say that modded guitars should be limited to mods in the wood and/or finish.....I don't think you've much modded a guitar if you just change the pickups or tuners (for example). But a parts guitar would certainly qualify IMO....where you draw that line is up to you Brian.

[another doug]

I would suggest requiring a GOTM entry to post a separate discussion thread. Some recent entries have not had build threads or discussion threads, and it would help in the voting if we were able to ask questions (and I completely agree that the GOTM thread is not the place to do it). I think any amount of guitar modding should be allowed, even if it's just a design that was built by someone else, but in those cases we need to be able to ask questions to determine how much of the end result was due to their influence. If it turns out that someone just slapped a store-bought pickguard on a store-bought strat, they should be able to enter, but there should also be somewhere for them to be ripped a new one.

Also, I'm with Daniel on the name thing. As you can tell by my login name, that is not where my creativity shines. If I ever get around to finishing a guitar that I would want to enter (having a toddler has seriously cut down on my tinkering time), I would prefer to not have to think up some dumb name (not saying the names are dumb, just that one that I think up would be).

[WezV]

i always forget about the name thing whilst i am posting my entries , rather than pull the entry wouldnt it be just as much/little work to ask the person for a name first?

i dont mind people entering guitars they have had made rather than done themselves - but i would appreciate honesty about it. I probably wouldnt vote for it unless it showed a clear vision and was something inventive

I think the once every 3 months idea is good, or maybe, if you win you cant enter for another 3 months

I like the idea of needing a build thread to go with your entry

i think people should only have one entry - but in some cases a group of entries could possibly be allowed as one. i.e. all Jehle's CBG's could have been entered as one because they share a common theme.... that might be getting a bit more complex than we want though

[zyonsdream]

I think we tend to govern ourselves when it comes time to vote. I can't remember a time where an entry with just 1 post in the forum won the GOTM and anyone who enters more than one just dilutes the votes they could get and ends up eliminating themselves from the competition.

I'd support a thread in the "in progress" section before it can be submitted to the GOTM section. This allows everyone to become familiar with the build and actually will help out part time builders when it comes time for the vote.

I'd also support a rule that disqualifies anyone who didn't build or significantly modify the instrument, after all, this is project guitar, not "vote on a guitar I bought and had little to do with the creation." If that's the case, the builder should be the one posting it for the competition.

[marksound]

I'd say 1 per person per month is plenty. As far as "non-contributing pro" or "stock store bought guitars", I say if someone is well-endowed enough to go for it, cool. Like someone said, the membership is savvy enough to weed out the poseurs and riffraff.

I don't include myself in any of the above groups, except maybe the well-endowed riffraff.

[aidlook]

I think the build-thread idea is a great one, and would also take care of the no-post pro's and the people who don't build/mod themselves.

It would also hopefully make people contribute more to the site.

One per month seems to be a good limit, and an easy rule to follow and enforce.

Nickname rule could be changed to a reccomendation instead.

[msherman]

My thoughts are:

Is it cool to use GOTM for promotional purposes, without actively contributing to the greater forum? No (there is an entry from a pro builder in GOTM right now. First post. No other contribution. Nothing.)

Perry, while I respect your opinions, this statement is false. While I might not be active on this site on a daily basis, and have a high post count, I happen to contribute quite often to the members here by answering technical questions through PM`s and emails. I am quite active over on seven string, and help members there on a daily basis.

Yes, I am a pro builder with 30+ years full time in the industry.

If you have done your research, you will notice that I ran the custom Shops for 5 major manufacturers.

I have trained quite a few Luthiers that went on to be successful and have their own companies.

I also do consulting work for major Manufacturers quite often with their production issues, so to say I don`t help out the Guitar Community couldn`t be further from the truth.

I would kindly ask you to do a little research before attacking me here.

Should there be a post limit, before people can enter guitars? Yes, because it will stop builders using it as a sales tool without contributing and helping the forum as a whole. (see above)

I am certainly not using GOTM for sales if that is what you are implying? I have enough sales on my own.

FWIW, I was asked to join this forum by several members on this site, as they fealt that I could add to the community due to the fact that I am forthcoming with information on other sites.

This is a guitar building site, so it would be kind of redundant to be "using it as a sales tool" when the majority of members here build guitars.

Should full time builders be limited? Yes. Seeing the GOTM turn into a free for all from professional builders makes me not want to contribute. This is why you dont see me enter much any more, i think my current entry is the only one in the last 12 months. This forum isnt a place to sell guitars, its a place to help others. I suggest a 'one entry per three months' rule.

I guess you are the only Pro builder that is allowed to enter? It`s kind of hypocritical to be complaining about my entry when you are a pro builder, and a 4 time GOTM winner, don`t you think?

I have deleted my GOTM entry since you seem to be so upset by it.

Mike

[rhoads56]

My thoughts are:

Is it cool to use GOTM for promotional purposes, without actively contributing to the greater forum? No (there is an entry from a pro builder in GOTM right now. First post. No other contribution. Nothing.)

Perry, while I respect your opinions, this statement is false. While I might not be active on this site on a daily basis, and have a high post count, I happen to contribute quite often to the members here by answering technical questions through PM`s and emails. I am quite active over on seven string, and help members there on a daily basis.

Yes, I am a pro builder with 30+ years full time in the industry.

If you have done your research, you will notice that I ran the custom Shops for 5 major manufacturers.

I have trained quite a few Luthiers that went on to be successful and have their own companies.

I also do consulting work for major Manufacturers quite often with their production issues, so to say I don`t help out the Guitar Community couldn`t be further from the truth.

I would kindly ask you to do a little research before attacking me here.

Should there be a post limit, before people can enter guitars? Yes, because it will stop builders using it as a sales tool without contributing and helping the forum as a whole. (see above)

I am certainly not using GOTM for sales if that is what you are implying? I have enough sales on my own.

FWIW, I was asked to join this forum by several members on this site, as they fealt that I could add to the community due to the fact that I am forthcoming with information on other sites.

This is a guitar building site, so it would be kind of redundant to be "using it as a sales tool" when the majority of members here build guitars.

Should full time builders be limited? Yes. Seeing the GOTM turn into a free for all from professional builders makes me not want to contribute. This is why you dont see me enter much any more, i think my current entry is the only one in the last 12 months. This forum isnt a place to sell guitars, its a place to help others. I suggest a 'one entry per three months' rule.

I guess you are the only Pro builder that is allowed to enter? It`s kind of hypocritical to be complaining about my entry when you are a pro builder, and a 4 time GOTM winner, don`t you think?

I have deleted my GOTM entry since you seem to be so upset by it.

Mike

It was actually another entry i was referring to, the pink guitar from a single post count member... but do as you like.

While you have the spotlight (and i just checked your profile), lets look at the facts... 3500ish posts over five years from me, versus 40 posts from you in 12 months (and ive hardly posted in the last 18 months). The members know who helps out, and who doesnt. You are clearly using this forum for promotion more than i am. You cant deny that, and to be honest I couldnt care less. But, i didnt refer to you, you chose to withdraw your entry. No one asked you to. Especially me.

PS, might pay to use the quote tags correctly mate.

[msherman]

My thoughts are:

Is it cool to use GOTM for promotional purposes, without actively contributing to the greater forum? No (there is an entry from a pro builder in GOTM right now. First post. No other contribution. Nothing.)

Perry, while I respect your opinions, this statement is false. While I might not be active on this site on a daily basis, and have a high post count, I happen to contribute quite often to the members here by answering technical questions through PM`s and emails. I am quite active over on seven string, and help members there on a daily basis.

Yes, I am a pro builder with 30+ years full time in the industry.

If you have done your research, you will notice that I ran the custom Shops for 5 major manufacturers.

I have trained quite a few Luthiers that went on to be successful and have their own companies.

I also do consulting work for major Manufacturers quite often with their production issues, so to say I don`t help out the Guitar Community couldn`t be further from the truth.

I would kindly ask you to do a little research before attacking me here.

Should there be a post limit, before people can enter guitars? Yes, because it will stop builders using it as a sales tool without contributing and helping the forum as a whole. (see above)

I am certainly not using GOTM for sales if that is what you are implying? I have enough sales on my own.

FWIW, I was asked to join this forum by several members on this site, as they fealt that I could add to the community due to the fact that I am forthcoming with information on other sites.

This is a guitar building site, so it would be kind of redundant to be "using it as a sales tool" when the majority of members here build guitars.

Should full time builders be limited? Yes. Seeing the GOTM turn into a free for all from professional builders makes me not want to contribute. This is why you dont see me enter much any more, i think my current entry is the only one in the last 12 months. This forum isnt a place to sell guitars, its a place to help others. I suggest a 'one entry per three months' rule.

I guess you are the only Pro builder that is allowed to enter? It`s kind of hypocritical to be complaining about my entry when you are a pro builder, and a 4 time GOTM winner, don`t you think?

I have deleted my GOTM entry since you seem to be so upset by it.

Mike

It was actually another entry i was referring to, the pink guitar from a single post count member... but do as you like.

While you have the spotlight (and i just checked your profile), lets look at the facts... 3500ish posts over five years from me, versus 40 posts from you in 12 months (and ive hardly posted in the last 18 months). The members know who helps out, and who doesnt. You are clearly using this forum for promotion more than i am. You cant deny that, and to be honest I couldnt care less. But, i didnt refer to you, you chose to withdraw your entry. No one asked you to. Especially me.

PS, might pay to use the quote tags correctly mate.

Again, I am clearly not using this site for promotional puposes. I was asked by members on this site to enter the guitar this month, and the two I entered last month.

You referenced a "pro builder, first post".....well I was the first post in the GOTM, so you could see where I would take that you were referring to me.

Quite frankly, I take offense to your comment "you are clearly using this this forum for promotion more than I am"

I do deny that!

How do you know what my intentions are?

I didn`t join this forum to showcase my work, I was asked to join by the members. I could care less about entering my instruments in the GOTM forum, hense why I withdrew my entry. If I was using the forum for promotion, wouldn`t I have entered before last month if I have been a member for 12 months?

Just because someone has a lower post count than you, doesn`t mean they don`t help out.

Honestly, you are coming off like you are above everyone else because you have a high post count.

I respect your talents. I think you do great work.

However, you are falsely accusing me of something, and I find it unprofessional.

This is all I have to say on the subject.

Mike

[zyonsdream]

Please, can we bring this back to a respectable discussion on how to maintain the integrity of the GOTM before this discussion causes the mods to scrap the competition altogether. I really like the showcase and enjoy ripping my hair out trying to decide which one to vote for.

Everyone has their own convictions, reasons and motives for posting in the main forum and the GOTM and I think everyone should rely on their own convictions when voting. If you don't like the fact that the guy has 10 posts over a year then don't vote for him. It's simple! There is no reason to continue personal attacks. That's the reason I come to this forum: a lack of personal attacks between professionals (for the most part that is.)

[radrobgray]

It was actually another entry i was referring to, the pink guitar from a single post count member... but do as you like.

While you have the spotlight (and i just checked your profile), lets look at the facts... 3500ish posts over five years from me, versus 40 posts from you in 12 months (and ive hardly posted in the last 18 months). The members know who helps out, and who doesnt. You are clearly using this forum for promotion more than i am. You cant deny that, and to be honest I couldnt care less. But, i didnt refer to you, you chose to withdraw your entry. No one asked you to. Especially me.

PS, might pay to use the quote tags correctly mate.

Don't be so quick to go on a witch hunt, I referred him here, so essentially its my fault if your going to point the finger. He's a friend, I saw his guitar and thought to myself "that would be a cool GOTM entry". If there were progress pics I'm pretty sure he would've started a thread. I'm gonna go out on a limb assume that the definition of "Pro" is a person that makes and sells guitars for a career. Although thats the goal (for many of us) he has not sold a guitar, thus (under the assumption of the definition of "pro") would not include him.

[fryovanni]

One guitar per. month seems reasonable, and kindof a no brainer if you actually are trying to win.

Pro with no contribution, Amature with no contribution.... Don't really care much. Self promotion on this forum has always been pretty open. If it is a talented pro, that is new to the forum. I am glad they are here, and hope that at least the forum could offer something to them for their time to contribute opinions and assistance. Winning GOTM is not likely much of a feather in the cap of a seasoned pro. If they are so new to working as a professional and GOTM is a big deal to them they are likely not too far off the caliber of other entries, and since GOTM has an element of favoratism(popularity contest) they are likely to be at a serious disadvantage being an unknown. I really like seeing small shops succeed, so I would hope they are not timid about promoting themselves any chance they get.

Placing commisioned builds, builds with little modification... Well I wouldn't vote for them either way, and I see it as silly they enter a builders contest. Seems pretty self regulating, because they will get little or no votes. I would say that some regulation regarding disclosure would be handy. I hate having to go through cryptic posts about a guitar and wind up asking myself did this person build this guitar?, a couple parts?, or ??? Giving credit to parts that are outsourced is good form, and seems a reasonable request.

I think keeping GOTM open and reasonably free of regulation has worked for a long while. Actually the casual nature of the forum, admittedly a double edged sword at times, has also proven to be a platform people are comfortable with and enjoy.

Rich

[Rick500]

I think the minimal rules as they are, are fine. I don't think each guitar necessarily should be required to have a name, but it's not a big deal.

Personally, I like to look through the GOTM each month as a showcase of instruments that have been recently finished (in most cases anyway) and that the builders are especially proud of.

I really don't care who wins. I haven't entered one myself, but if I did, it wouldn't make much difference to me if I won or not. I just like to see the latest batch of products this group has turned out.

[zyonsdream]

I always get excited when I see that there is a new post in the GOTM because for the most part it's an interesting build and an overwhelming majority of them never have progress threads so it's cool to see some new guitar porn! It's one of my favorite spots throughout the month and lately we have been seeing a very large amount of guitars entered which is even more cool.

I'd like to suggest one rule change to go into place for the June vote:

When I enter a guitar into the contest, every one must vote for me!

[erikbojerik]

I've said it before, and I'll say it again (a quote c/o my better half):

"A GOTM win (nice as it is) means you have the respect and accolades of a relatively obscure internet forum."

Its just good fun, no one's exactly mining it for their first million.

[Dean]

GOTM seems to be ok the way it is,to me.The one time I entered a guitar,I was more interested in what people thought about it then winning.It was just a place to get some feed back.There are a few people on here that take the time to really go the extra mile ,in the feed back department,and as for me that is what I was looking for.Good or bad I wanted to know what someone thought about my build.It really does not matter to me if they build it or buy it,I think I can figure out who should get my vote.I think most people in here can do that too.I also understand Perry's concern,he went to the point of sharing a lot of information on his last build ,this is hard to do as a builder...as he has stated people are already taking liberties with his design.There is a build on this site right now ,that has a headstock that is a copy of my builders design.So I say live and let live,and may the best guitar win.

msherman,please keep posting....looks like a misunderstanding to me.Just my two cents.

[ProjectGuitar.com]

So far one rule has changed----------

Make sure Your Guitar has a Name or Nick Name as well otherwise one will be given to it (generic is a possibility)

Others may follow............

[Mickguard]

The name thing's simple anyway -- just use the submitter's name as a default.

Multiple entries? No -- I think there should be a limit on the total number of guitars permitted to be entered each month. 10 seems to be a realistic number. More than that and it gets a little silly. Multiple entries just puts things over the line.

Although I love looking at people's finished guitars. And I like showing off my work too.

And to be honest, that's the only reason I enter a guitar in the GOTM, because it's done and I want people to see it. The "competition" part actually deters me more than it stimulates me.

So I vote for a monthly Project Guitar Gallery (PGG) -- just a place where all of us who have finished a guitar that month can put up what we've done. It'd be so cool to scroll down the page looking at the production .... Maybe a top section with the photos, and then allow a discussion below that.

And in that gallery people like Rhodes and Jelly and everyone has a place to show off as many guitars/projects as they like -- I really do get a lot of inspiration from seeing other people's work. And a lot more people would show off their work too.

I agreed with Perry about that entry --I don't care if he designed it, this is a place for personal projects -- builds, mods, whatever, your hands have to be on the actual guitar during the process. If he had just done the finish himself, that would have been enough for me.

[ihocky2]

I think getting rid of the naming portion of the rules would be good. I have a tougher time naming designs than building them. I am also in favor of a progress thread must be posted before it can be entered into the GOTM. Like others have said, it gives us a place to ask questions. And by adding that one rule it eliminates the need for rules about having someone else do the work, or how much modifications are allowed, or how much was done. The progress thread will give those detail and the members voting will be able to decide from there. I don't thikn it is often that we get people wanting to enter more than one a month, so I don't see it as a big deal. If all goes well I'll have two guitar ready in time for the next months entry. Neither of them are of the quality that I want to enter them, but when people finish more than one a month I think it should be allowed. But I do like the idea that if you win, you should not be allowed to enter for three months.

[Supernova9]

Numbers-wise, 1-2 guitars per month, maximum.

Also, one I remember happening before - no re-entering guitars in more than one month (unless HEAVILY modified, and I don't think a refinish counts)

Also, if it's an award on a guitar-building forum, I don't think commissioned guitars built by someone else should be allowed. All those entering should have a hand in the construction process.

As for the pro/amateur debate, let both enter in the same competition, gives us all something to aim for.

[oz tradie]

1 guitar per month is all I'd enforce.

Everyone knows when something fishy goes up for GOTM and they vote accordingly.

It's the ultimate form of self-governance.

cheers, Stu