Johnny Foreigner Posted July 5, 2010 Author Report Share Posted July 5, 2010 hey! it looks like a real guitar! so time to throw some hardware on and pretend i don't still have the gruelling task of finishing ahead of me.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geo Posted July 6, 2010 Report Share Posted July 6, 2010 there's definitely something addictive about the process and something deeply satisfying the presses both my man button and my musician button at the same time. Word. BTW I love the chunky cutout for the jack. This one looks great! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottR Posted July 6, 2010 Report Share Posted July 6, 2010 Good to see this beasty going again. And it's looking great! Welcome back. SR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Foreigner Posted July 6, 2010 Author Report Share Posted July 6, 2010 thanks Scott. Into the final furlong.... at times I wish I'd chosen a simpler design - a tele clone or something - but I've learned SO much by making this super complicated with the carve, jack cut, weird fret markers, direct mount pups, piezo, wiring, etc. anyway, time to idiot-check my finishing schedule (largely nicked off of the Stewmac site as I'm using their colortone products) 1. Raise the grain on the top with water, then gently sand back (I assume using pretty low grit) 2. Sand everything to 220 3. stain back, neck and back of HS black. stain top and front of HS dark blue (not black) 4. sand back top and top of HS. Stain blue. 5. marvel at lovely flamy 3d top for a bit 6. use grain filler on mahogany bits (back and sides) but not on maple bits (top and top of HS). Sand to 320. 7. 12 - 16 sanding sealer coats - no less than 3 hours apart, no more than 48 hours apart (do I need to empty and refill the gun between coats or can i leave the sanding sealer in the sealed can??) 8. wait 24 hours 9. 9 - 12 top coats - no less than 3 hours apart 10. wait a week 11. wet sand, starting at 1200, moving up as high as my micromesh pads go (12000) 12. buff out with fine polishing compound. all make sense?? I know I've seen more specific buffing tips elsewhere on here which I need to dig out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oblaty Posted July 6, 2010 Report Share Posted July 6, 2010 you forgot one step: level sanding after sealer coats And I would empty and refill the gun between coats.. what finish are you using on this one? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
killemall8 Posted July 7, 2010 Report Share Posted July 7, 2010 Are you saying 3 hours between each coat??? that is WAY too long... they should be sprayed 15-20 minutes apart... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fliski Guitars Posted July 7, 2010 Report Share Posted July 7, 2010 Are you saying 3 hours between each coat??? that is WAY too long... they should be sprayed 15-20 minutes apart... +1, you can spray the coats pretty quickly with the waterbased stuff. If you do happen to leave more than 48 hours between coating for some reason then scuff sanding with 320 is needed for adhesion and for future coats to melt in. And yeh, clean the gun out frequently- after each coat if possible otherwise it will cure in the gun. Spray the first few coats pretty light- like a dusting. I seem to find that the coats go on looking pretty dry then flow out a few minutes later looking wet so bear that in mind as its pretty easy to spray too much in a coat if you're trying to get it looking wet when spraying. And yeh like someone said- sand your sealer coats flat with 320 before moving onto the clear so you can get the body nice and flat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Foreigner Posted July 7, 2010 Author Report Share Posted July 7, 2010 the three hour thing was based on the stewmac finishing schedule for the water-based lacquer. so, if I only need to wait 15-20 mins, and I want to shoot 12 - 16 coats of sanding sealer, I could feasibly do this over the course of one day?? and ditto for the top coats? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fliski Guitars Posted July 7, 2010 Report Share Posted July 7, 2010 the three hour thing was based on the stewmac finishing schedule for the water-based lacquer. so, if I only need to wait 15-20 mins, and I want to shoot 12 - 16 coats of sanding sealer, I could feasibly do this over the course of one day?? and ditto for the top coats? Here's what I do; DAY 1 - Shoot 4 or 5 coats of sanding sealer, leave overnight DAY 2 - Scuff sand the S&S with 320 then shoot another 4 or 5 coats of it DAY 3 - Scuff sand with 320 again which should leave you with a perfectly flat surface Shoot 6 or so coats of Clear Day 4 - Shoot another 6 or so coats of Clear LET IT CURE A WEEK Then sand/polish it out That process has always worked fine for me. You could probably squeeze more coats in there but I would strongly say that shooting all the S&S and clear in one go is a bad idea. It needs to gas off and if you think about it, only the few outer layers are going to be gassing off fully. Thats why I do it over a few days to let the layers gas off as I go along Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Foreigner Posted July 7, 2010 Author Report Share Posted July 7, 2010 sounds good just need to figure out some time management to make sure I have enough consecutive days where I can set aside at least 2 hours... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeD Posted July 8, 2010 Report Share Posted July 8, 2010 I really love those inlays. Side and top markers all in one. Great idea. Mind if I borrow the concept for a future build? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Foreigner Posted July 8, 2010 Author Report Share Posted July 8, 2010 I really love those inlays. Side and top markers all in one. Great idea. Mind if I borrow the concept for a future build? thanks! and yes, go ahead. I have no plans to 'go commercial' any time soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Foreigner Posted July 10, 2010 Author Report Share Posted July 10, 2010 ok. everything sanded to 220. grain raised and knocked back. back dyed: along with pup routs and jack slice: tomorrow hopefully I can dye the top dark blue, then Monday I can sand back and re-dye regular blue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Foreigner Posted July 11, 2010 Author Report Share Posted July 11, 2010 HOLY CRAP THIS PART IS EXCITING! I'd almost forgotten how nice the figure was on this wood. I'm almost tempted to leave it there and have it as a denim sort of color, but I know the sand-back and blue dye is going to look even better. I'm a true aesthete - at this stage I don't care one bit how this thing plays or sounds. I LOVE how it looks, already! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Foreigner Posted July 11, 2010 Author Report Share Posted July 11, 2010 one question for tomorrow's task.... what grit should i use to sand back the dark blue ready for the lighter blue final dye?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
killemall8 Posted July 12, 2010 Report Share Posted July 12, 2010 i'd say 400. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottR Posted July 12, 2010 Report Share Posted July 12, 2010 i'd say 400. +1 SR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Foreigner Posted July 13, 2010 Author Report Share Posted July 13, 2010 didn't take any pics of the sanded back state - i was too excited to get to the next bit - dyeing it the lighter blue. you can just about see on the side where the masking tape pulled out a few fibers. very annoying - i'm guessing i can just sand flat and re-dye, hoping for a decent color match... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luthier1206 Posted July 13, 2010 Report Share Posted July 13, 2010 Looks beautiful. Can't wait to see her complete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottR Posted July 13, 2010 Report Share Posted July 13, 2010 (edited) Man, dyeing figured maple is cool as hell isn't it! You should have no problem matching that spot when you re-dye it. It should blend in easily. SR Edited July 13, 2010 by ScottR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Foreigner Posted July 13, 2010 Author Report Share Posted July 13, 2010 Man, dyeing figured maple is cool as hell isn't it! You should have no problem matching that spot when you re-dye it. It should blend in easily. SR YUP! there were actually a few spots where the masking tape pulled up fibers - you can see it most dramatically on the HS shot. shouldn't be too hard to deal with. now i'm itching to get the lacquer on so i can see it all nice and shiny! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwedishLuthier Posted July 15, 2010 Report Share Posted July 15, 2010 Hold on! Before you follow these advices: Are you saying 3 hours between each coat??? that is WAY too long... they should be sprayed 15-20 minutes apart... +1, you can spray the coats pretty quickly with the waterbased stuff. If you do happen to leave more than 48 hours between coating for some reason then scuff sanding with 320 is needed for adhesion and for future coats to melt in. I'd like to chip in with my experience and this quote from Stumacs instructions: Clear Gloss Topcoat is a crystal-clear acrylic waterbase lacquer that has 100% burn-in between coats, without a time limit. OK, last part first: You do not need to sand between coats to get adhesion. That was common with older type of water based finishes, but the modern once doesn't need that. Its not a problem if you do it but it isnt necessary either. I haven't done that for the past 10 years and I have not had any problems at all. And I have used both colourtone and KTM-9 from LMII. And now on to the "time between coats" part. From my personal experience I'd say do not under any conditions spray coats with less than an hour between coats. It will cause a poor curing process and it will introduce a bueish tint to the finish (maybe not a major problem with this particular guitar). The finish will also be soft and gummy. Take it from one that has stripped off one too many finishes because they turned blue and soft from spraying coats to tight. As a minimum I try to have at least two hours beteeen coats, and no more than four coats per day. If I apply four coats in one day, I also try to leave the guitar for 48 hours before I aply more finish. Of cause it all comes down to thicknes of finish, drying conditions etc, but if you apply a good coat (no orrange peel from spraying too dry no sags or runs from too wet) you will need sufficient drying time between coats and my personal rule of thumb is no less than two hours, especially in dry, hot weather. And if possible I leave the guitar for at least 3-4 weeks before buffing as the water based finishes continue to cure ofer time and a harder finish is easier to buff and the end result will be better with a harder finish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Foreigner Posted July 15, 2010 Author Report Share Posted July 15, 2010 Hold on! Before you follow these advices: Are you saying 3 hours between each coat??? that is WAY too long... they should be sprayed 15-20 minutes apart... +1, you can spray the coats pretty quickly with the waterbased stuff. If you do happen to leave more than 48 hours between coating for some reason then scuff sanding with 320 is needed for adhesion and for future coats to melt in. I'd like to chip in with my experience and this quote from Stumacs instructions: Clear Gloss Topcoat is a crystal-clear acrylic waterbase lacquer that has 100% burn-in between coats, without a time limit. OK, last part first: You do not need to sand between coats to get adhesion. That was common with older type of water based finishes, but the modern once doesn't need that. Its not a problem if you do it but it isnt necessary either. I haven't done that for the past 10 years and I have not had any problems at all. And I have used both colourtone and KTM-9 from LMII. And now on to the "time between coats" part. From my personal experience I'd say do not under any conditions spray coats with less than an hour between coats. It will cause a poor curing process and it will introduce a bueish tint to the finish (maybe not a major problem with this particular guitar). The finish will also be soft and gummy. Take it from one that has stripped off one too many finishes because they turned blue and soft from spraying coats to tight. As a minimum I try to have at least two hours beteeen coats, and no more than four coats per day. If I apply four coats in one day, I also try to leave the guitar for 48 hours before I aply more finish. Of cause it all comes down to thicknes of finish, drying conditions etc, but if you apply a good coat (no orrange peel from spraying too dry no sags or runs from too wet) you will need sufficient drying time between coats and my personal rule of thumb is no less than two hours, especially in dry, hot weather. And if possible I leave the guitar for at least 3-4 weeks before buffing as the water based finishes continue to cure ofer time and a harder finish is easier to buff and the end result will be better with a harder finish. thanks Peter, that definitely gives me something to think about.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Foreigner Posted September 29, 2010 Author Report Share Posted September 29, 2010 I had no idea it had been so long since I'd posted anything on this one. Anyways, she's done! Overall, I'm happy, while still very very conscious of the areas that could be improved. the good bits: - the design is something I'm happy with. The jack placement is perfect, I like the shape of the carve, the control layout, etc - the flamy maple looks super cool - the blueness. always wanted a blue guitar, now I have one - overall sound - not that I'm a connoisseur of guitar tone, but it sounds at least as good as my epi LP so I'll take that. - the piezo pickup works well - it doesn't sound like an acoustic, but it does sound like an amped acoustic and deffo opens up the tonal palette - the ntune - best. invention. ever. - that it works, and plays, and is shiny - the $8 bridge. you've got to love China. the not so good: - the finish. finishing is definitely the area where my natural impatience takes the biggest toll. Still, lots learnt for next time - the overall attention to perfectionist detail is simply not there - too many little things that could have been that bit better if I'd taken a little more time and care - the series/parallel pushpulls don't really do enough to warrant their inclusion - the sound just isn't different enough. - grainfilling. i completely underestimated its importance and didn't pay enough attention to how good of a job i was doing of it. biggest lessons learned: - if the wood isn't smooth before you start the finishing, it isn't going to be smooth afterwards - the finish does not fill in the little pits like you might fondly imagine - wood is really easy to ding - slow and steady wins the race and produces a cleaner build - the phrase 'it will do' is your enemy. the only thing that will 'do' is perfection! There was definitely a desire to get this first one done relatively quickly. I think now I've popped my cherry, the focus next time will deffo be on the cleanest build possible - no corners cut just to get a particular bit of the build done and move onto something more exciting - I'm going to challenge myself to be more of a perfectionist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IPA or death Posted September 29, 2010 Report Share Posted September 29, 2010 the not so good: - the finish. finishing is definitely the area where my natural impatience takes the biggest toll. Still, lots learnt for next time - the overall attention to perfectionist detail is simply not there - too many little things that could have been that bit better if I'd taken a little more time and care - the series/parallel pushpulls don't really do enough to warrant their inclusion - the sound just isn't different enough. - grainfilling. i completely underestimated its importance and didn't pay enough attention to how good of a job i was doing of it. biggest lessons learned: - if the wood isn't smooth before you start the finishing, it isn't going to be smooth afterwards - the finish does not fill in the little pits like you might fondly imagine - wood is really easy to ding - slow and steady wins the race and produces a cleaner build - the phrase 'it will do' is your enemy. the only thing that will 'do' is perfection! ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I could have written all of that . Exactly my problems with my builds. You did good though, and it is a learning experience. Keep it up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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