Titebond Is Rubbish

[Narcissism]

Herro. I so ronery.

LMFAO

[avengers63]

[wizardfire]

To blame, condemn, and crucify w/o a fair trial is unjust and shows an unreasonable attitude to learning the trade of building good guitars. No good thing will come of this kind of attitude I tell you the truth.

I would like to see a pic of this repaired laminated top guitar and understand what your application procedure was exactly before condemning Titebond to Eternal Hellfire.

I would also like to read the original thread for questionable usage of terminology, such as possibly substituting the word laminate for veneer or something along those lines, to be sure we are all talking about apples and not you saying apples and actually meaning paranormal nebulizers.

There is no good or bad, right or wrong, there is only knowledge ...and Kabuki.

Well, Drak....I have never read such a load of sanctimonious piffle in all of my 60 years on this planet! I don't think I have heard the likes on any of the other planets I have lived on either. Some of you people on this site are so far up your own your own fundaments, it's a wonder you don't drown in your own efluent! Please don't use such a high handed tone with me! I am so sorry that I don't use the correct terminology for your highness. What the f*ck is wrong with the use of 'veneer' when describing veneer?

Just for the record....I have been a teacher of Design and Technology for 40 years now and have taught thousands of youngsters to create and realise high quality artefacts in wood, metal and plastic.

All I was doing was voicing an opinion, based on an experience, with a new type of glue ( sorry, should I say 'adhesive' here? ...Or perhaps 'facilitator of the state of two materials becoming permanently conjoined?) I have obviously learnt from the experience and realise that the veneer / laminate that I used, mouingue, was extremely open grained and porus enough to allow seepage. As for the advice about wiping the glue off with a wet rag...well there's a new idea! I am 60 years old and have learnt some new! (NOT). I would love someone to tell me how to wipe the excess glue off when it the veneer/laminate is clamped solidly to the guitar body! But no doubt you 'experts' will have a condescending answer for that!

I also humbly apologise for blaspheming aginst the Holly Titebond, but am I, a heathen and an unbeliever, not worthy to utter it's name?

Just to finish here are some photos of the finished guitar. I suppose you will find fault with this too!

Come on! Youv'e got to laugh at yourself! ( or cry)

Wizardfire

[Samba Pa Ti]

snip

those guitars look fine to me, being a CDT teacher i would expect that you would have experience by now of using various glues (titebond/pva) and how to deal with excess.

[DC Ross]

Holly Titebond

She's a stripper in Vegas, isn't she?

[SwedishLuthier]

Talking about "wet rage..."

C'mone, whats been stated here, be it more or less politely, is that your problem is most likely not to find with the specific glue used. Your original comment of going back to PVA from Titebond does suggest that you don't have a clue of what you are taking about. The info you posted in your last post points to the opposite. You gotta realize that the responses are to some extent based on the info you share.

Anyway as stated before, you need to once again scrutinize your working methods to try to find the cause for your problem. And so you did! You said it yourself. The veneer was made from porous wood! Changing glue will not make the wood less porous. With a wood like that you need a different working method. Don't stain the wood. Use a tinted finish instead. Even if you have been teaching for 40 years there are still things to learn. I have been building guitars for at least 20 years, the last 5-7 years as a semi pro builder/guitar tech and I learn new things all the time. And every time that happens, it was worth getting out of bed that day.

Lighten up, chalk it up to "lessons learned" and start a new project

[psw]

Well, Drak....I have never read such a load of sanctimonious piffle in all of my 60 years on this planet! I don't think I have heard the likes on any of the other planets I have lived on either. Some of you people on this site are so far up your own your own fundaments, it's a wonder you don't drown in your own efluent! Please don't use such a high handed tone with me! I am so sorry that I don't use the correct terminology for your highness.

...

Wizardfire

Hmmm...I thought that kind of reaction was reserved for me...anyway...

We all have many things to learn...

As far as using PVA's..yes, they are going to cause problems with thin porous woods and certainly any kind of clear finish pretty much as they tend to seal the wood and sanding it away (near impossible with a veneer anyway) is going to be near if not impossible (say on a veneer where it has soaked through)...so, solutions...

I used to be a bookbinder and used various glues including various PVA types (titebond is simply a name) on materials like paper and leather and fabric...yep, all thinner and more porous and not able to 'sand' later...so...

One 'solution' is to mix a very watery PVA solution and let it sit and start to go off...then quickly brush a thin coat to the back of the veneer. This will provide a sealing coat to prevent the glue coat seeping through. Hold the veneer to the light, often you can even see holes in it, obviously glue will get through such holes, right? So, perhaps you could try attaching a surface clear plastic adhesive material to the front...providing a protective coating to stop any glue getting on the face and the glue from penetrating through as you do the first sealing glue coat. These two strategies and anything else you might be able to think of (like gluing in the same way a supportive tissue paper layer or using a heat glue (PVA itself will soften up with heat))...good to leave on while clamping and other operations prior to finishing also..after all, they do it to plastic pickguards to prevent premature scratching, right?

Of course, veneering is itself something of an art unto itself...and I am by no means an expert...so at such times it might be good to consult a reference on the subject...I have such a book, unfortunately it is still in the boxes from my recent move...preventing me from also sounding like "a load of sanctimonious piffle" (by the way, is there something in the UK water, this attitude and language seems to all emanate from over there lately) by quoting what the real experts do...after all, inlay and on-lay artists in veneer do some amazing work with all kinds of veneer (even using PVA type glues) and woods with different grain patterns and shrinkage's, so they certainly seem to have methods for it...

It is a criticism of the forum (which can use a bit of criticism occasionally) not just the glue...it was put that this was the suggestion of members here to use...hmm. Well, this is a wide community, many may not have gone through the pitfalls or assumed you knew that stuff. Use epoxy and it would undoubtedly turned out even worse!

And yes, veneer is not the most common strategy for custom guitars, it's more of a decorative surface material...spray painting is going to be harder, would you blames someone for suggesting you spray a guitar if you make a mess of it?

But, I had a discussion about the use of PVA and exactly what it is with someone else from the UK in recent times in another forum that used equally strong if not personal attacks and ridicule upon me...I suggest it as a cheap and safe and effective way of potting electromagnetic coils...I stand by that, PVA when dry has much the same qualities as PVC tape but in a liquid form, the industry standard for insulating materials in electronics...sounds good to me...

I got to ask myself, exception though there are many here, if there is just something in the UK character that has to fly off with such stuff...

Nice guitars btw, but proves nothing as far as knowledge of glues or working with veneers, tightbond is PVA!

[Mender]

(by the way, is there something in the UK water, this attitude and language seems to all emanate from over there lately)

Nothing wrong with the water It's more a problem with our government. The one we just got rid ran our country into huge amounts of debt and ruined our economy. Our new government is a coalition between the "rich man's party", who take off the poor and give to the rich, and a "don't know what we're doing" party who change their minds more often than they change their underwear, so we're doomed, I tell you, doooooomed!

[WezV]

erm - dont associate this guys attitude with the rest of us UK folk

anyone read the original thread? I cant be arsed to find it but if you specifically said you were doing a veneer top before a direct stain, and you got told specifically that a veneer atatched with titebond will still allow you to do that (with no caveats about wood type) - then you got bad advice... i suggest you ask for your money back

ever had a student do something wrong only to place the blame on something you know works perfectly.... my guess would be at least once a day for your last 40 years of teaching.

[psw]

Fair...but it does seem a bit lately...in any democracy, they say you get the government you deserve, or so they say, don't think they are the problem...hmmm

But...I did find the the original thread to make up for dis'ing the 'old country'...

Tightbond 2

OP says always used PVA and worked fine on the headstock...woodenspoke answers a direct question about tightbond 2, ends with...

Thanks. But any good PVA that isnt waterproof is fine...

but there were links to a thread on the subject...

...

It's always disappointing when a project that is dear like a sons guitar goes astray, worse when 'dad' has some knowledge in the general area...but it is at times like that that even more care needs to be taken when trying something new. Take a break and do it again, either with the lesson learned, or something new...

I think this is more of what was happening in this project...

[Mender]

erm - dont associate this guys attitude with the rest of us UK folk

Quite so. I'm in the UK and I'm an easy going type, hating any sort of flaming or arguments. Civilised discussions I do like, where one can disagree with another in an amicable manner

Anyway, back to Titebond. I've used Titebond to stick open grain veneer down,. The first time was a mess, soaking through the veneer, but then I was given a very useful tip by a furniture maker. Use a rolled up bit of lint free cloth, put a smallish amount of Titebond on the cloth and spread it around (on the cloth, not the veneer!). Once you have a thin layer on the cloth, wipe it sparingly over the veneer, making sure the veneer is covered in a very thin layer. You don't want enough Titebond on there to soak through.

Allow to dry, about two hours. Repeat this operation another two times. Now you have a firm dry layer of Titebond on the veneer, which will stop the glue from soaking through. Now you can spread Titebond on the timber you are putting the veneer on. Spread it fairly thin, and as evenly as possible, so you don't have pools of the stuff on the surface. Don't put any more glue on the veneer. There will be enough on the timber to do the job. Now lay the veneer down on the timber, obviously glue side down. Use a length of thick dowel/broom handle to roll the veneer down firmly all over, then clamp in your usual way.

You may have to do a couple of test runs on offcuts to perfect it, but it works well. I've put thin veneer on three different guitars, and after leaving for three or four days, successfully stained them with water based stain, applied sparingly, and allowing to dry before applying subsequent coats.

Alcohol based stains may start to dissolve the glue as it soaks through, and cause bubbles to form under the veneer, so for that reason, I stick to water based dye.

[E Squared]

To blame, condemn, and crucify w/o a fair trial is unjust and shows an unreasonable attitude to learning the trade of building good guitars. No good thing will come of this kind of attitude I tell you the truth.

I would like to see a pic of this repaired laminated top guitar and understand what your application procedure was exactly before condemning Titebond to Eternal Hellfire.

I would also like to read the original thread for questionable usage of terminology, such as possibly substituting the word laminate for veneer or something along those lines, to be sure we are all talking about apples and not you saying apples and actually meaning paranormal nebulizers.

There is no good or bad, right or wrong, there is only knowledge ...and Kabuki.

Well, Drak....I have never read such a load of sanctimonious piffle in all of my 60 years on this planet! I don't think I have heard the likes on any of the other planets I have lived on either. Some of you people on this site are so far up your own your own fundaments, it's a wonder you don't drown in your own efluent! Please don't use such a high handed tone with me! I am so sorry that I don't use the correct terminology for your highness. What the f*ck is wrong with the use of 'veneer' when describing veneer?

Just for the record....I have been a teacher of Design and Technology for 40 years now and have taught thousands of youngsters to create and realise high quality artefacts in wood, metal and plastic.

All I was doing was voicing an opinion, based on an experience, with a new type of glue ( sorry, should I say 'adhesive' here? ...Or perhaps 'facilitator of the state of two materials becoming permanently conjoined?) I have obviously learnt from the experience and realise that the veneer / laminate that I used, mouingue, was extremely open grained and porus enough to allow seepage. As for the advice about wiping the glue off with a wet rag...well there's a new idea! I am 60 years old and have learnt some new! (NOT). I would love someone to tell me how to wipe the excess glue off when it the veneer/laminate is clamped solidly to the guitar body! But no doubt you 'experts' will have a condescending answer for that!

I also humbly apologise for blaspheming aginst the Holly Titebond, but am I, a heathen and an unbeliever, not worthy to utter it's name?

Just to finish here are some photos of the finished guitar. I suppose you will find fault with this too!

Come on! Youv'e got to laugh at yourself! ( or cry)

Wizardfire

To me you sound like a grumpy old man who's guitar didn't get finished fast enough for him. We're all crying for you.(trust me )

[Prostheta]

I'm still not out of the phase of rollering my Titebond on and using brads, dowels or cocktail sticks to prevent hydraulic movement of the workpieces. I've been modifying guitars for 18yrs, building for 5-6yrs and I can't consider myself any kind of expert on Titebond. I do know what it can and cannot do however, and that is more than half the battle right there. I'm glad I took something from every bit that I have done wrongly.

I'm sure that Titebond was not the best choice for veneering/laminating your porous wood. Fair call, but don't blame the product. Just because a Saph Cossie can't do dieselled up roundabouts very well doesn't mean the Cossie is a bad product...in a perfect world you'd choose the 4WD RS500. Horses for courses ;-)

I believe that you would have had more success hammer veneering the top with hot hide glue. This article should enlighten you as to the process:

http://www.fullchisel.com/blog/?p=751

This is also useful:

Edited June 2, 2010 by Prostheta

[Tim37]

great thread i love it

[low end fuzz]

holly crap; i needed my thesaurus to follow this thread; i'm an avid titebond user, and will stick with it (get it!)

one thing ive seen on this board is that if you damn anything, your going to get a backlash, especially when your problems come from human error;

but to say our heads are up our a$$es and then give a 1000 word lecture on your teaching career on ''our board" makes me think YOUR head is so far up your own hole it popped back out the top of yur neck.

Go back to teaching your students how not to listen to experiences

[Woodenspoke]

erm - dont associate this guys attitude with the rest of us UK folk

Quite so. I'm in the UK and I'm an easy going type, hating any sort of flaming or arguments. Civilised discussions I do like, where one can disagree with another in an amicable manner

Anyway, back to Titebond. I've used Titebond to stick open grain veneer down,. The first time was a mess, soaking through the veneer, but then I was given a very useful tip by a furniture maker. Use a rolled up bit of lint free cloth, put a smallish amount of Titebond on the cloth and spread it around (on the cloth, not the veneer!). Once you have a thin layer on the cloth, wipe it sparingly over the veneer, making sure the veneer is covered in a very thin layer. You don't want enough Titebond on there to soak through.

Allow to dry, about two hours. Repeat this operation another two times. Now you have a firm dry layer of Titebond on the veneer, which will stop the glue from soaking through. Now you can spread Titebond on the timber you are putting the veneer on. Spread it fairly thin, and as evenly as possible, so you don't have pools of the stuff on the surface. Don't put any more glue on the veneer. There will be enough on the timber to do the job. Now lay the veneer down on the timber, obviously glue side down. Use a length of thick dowel/broom handle to roll the veneer down firmly all over, then clamp in your usual way.

You may have to do a couple of test runs on offcuts to perfect it, but it works well. I've put thin veneer on three different guitars, and after leaving for three or four days, successfully stained them with water based stain, applied sparingly, and allowing to dry before applying subsequent coats.

Alcohol based stains may start to dissolve the glue as it soaks through, and cause bubbles to form under the veneer, so for that reason, I stick to water based dye.

Been awhile since I bothered looking at this thread, seems to have gone downhill. Somehow I am tired of answering glue questions these days. So much information on the web as well and so many products for veneering too.

Anyway some of the issues using titebond on veneer is moisture. As mender alludes to in the above post it is the removal of some of that moisture that helps. There are grades of PVA veneer glue with a high solids content (Less moisture) where using a cloth is unnecessary.

I am not sure why a water based stain should be better for a water soluble glue? Scratching my head but not saying its wrong.

[Mender]

...

I am not sure why a water based stain should be better for a water soluble glue? Scratching my head but not saying its wrong.

I tried alcohol based stain twice, thinking it would be better than water based, but both times it caused the veneer to start lifting, even though I applied it sparingly. So I tried water based, applying very light coats, and it worked. I think the alcohol soaks through the veneer much faster and deeper that the water. I always apply sparingly, preferring to do several light coats rather than one heavy coat. That way I can get the depth of colour I want with almost no risk of the water based stain dissolving the glue

[wizardfire]

OK! OK! Yes I admit I am a grumpy old man! But my mind is still as open and creative as it was many years ago! I really think that this thread has come to a rather sticky end, so time to roll a joint and take that pastey look off of my face. I must learn to adhere to the rules more, especially on this forum where there is a danger of me becoming unstuck. Perhaps we need to join together more and develop a closer bond and cement our friendship!

'nuff said, I feel!

Time to draw it to a close?

Wizardfire

[psw]

It's ok wiz, we all melt down occasionally...well, I'm known to regularly...I know a few others do too...

generally not so early in the run of things...but it happens...

welcome to the forum, there's always another project and lots of ideas here, personally I use PVA, but what would I know!

[low end fuzz]

welcome to the forum!

i like the cut of your jib;

i will roll a joint;

thank you for the good idea!

[Dean]

Just take a big hit off that Sticky joint,and it should bond ,then you should laught at things that are not there.I'am just guessing ,as I have heard it is like that.Then maybe get someone to offer you a shotgun,and shoot that bad boy.Then get some titebond orginal and glue something.There you go ,a good experence with titebond.

[wizard_drongo]

Heh, I was just about to post a question about which glue is best to use for a solid-body (I bought a two-piece blank that needs glued together!)...

I'd heard of Titebond but every shop I've gone into here in Scotland I've had the "you're on smack, aren't you?" look from the staff as I ask about it; no-one's heard of it.

So PVA is the stuff? Not any weird and wonderful stuff like "Gorilla Glue" (that I've also heard of, and I've actually seen that, for an eye-watering price)?

BTW wizardfire, in a scary small-world-aint-it moment, I noticed you're a CDT teacher from "Haverhill"; scary thing being before moving here, I grew up in Haverhill. Depending on which school you teach at, there's a very good chance I've met you and had the honour of you trying to teach me.

If so, sorry. I was **** at anything at all practical in school, and really spent most of High School trying to worm my way into one of my classmates knickers.

(for the curious, persistence pays off, and she was *so* worth not learning a damned thing for 3 years. Also saw her recently on Facebook. Babbied up and everything's gone a bit southwards. Avoiding now )

[wizardfire]

Hey wizard drongo,

Try searching for Titebond on the net. That's how I found a stockist in Cambridge. I just used some Titebond for bonding some parts of a bench that I am building and it was fine! I just love Titebond! The world's best glue! I hope that gets DRak off my back!

I have used 'ordinary PVA for years and if you have something decent like Evostick Resin W it will be perfect. Don't buy cheap, unbranded PVA though.

Sorry Drak...I hope I'm not offending your Holliness by dishing out advice, unworthy as I am!

By the way drongo, I've taught in Mildenhall and just the other side of Bury, but never in Haverhill. Unlikely our paths ever crossed. I know Colin Bailey who teaches D & T at Parkway Middle in Haverhill. Know him?

WizardFire

Edited June 4, 2010 by wizardfire

[westhemann]

You sure don't sound like a 60 year old man.

[wizard_drongo]

So go for good-brand PVA, not the cheap £1 a bottle stuff in Poundland.

Damn; really on a budget here!

Never went to parkway, but I think I know the guy you're on about. I was in Castle Hill, then Linton Village College, with Tom Minnock taking the wood-working classes (along with his geordie assistant whose name escapes me)...