Stolysmaster Posted November 20, 2012 Report Share Posted November 20, 2012 Haven't visited here for quite a while, but I thought I'd see what opinions I could get on this: I purchased a 1980 Ibanez Artist earlier this year with the notion of sawing off the maple neck, ordering a new neck made by Doug at Soulmate to my specs, and having a local guy cut the tenon, mortise the body, and glue in the neck, then refinish it in nitro lacquer. I've done this with two custom made guitars already using necks made by Doug, but NEVER actually sawed the neck off an old instrument. I have owned three Artists prior to this, but have only kept one from 1982 that I refinished in nitro. I do not like the necks on these vintage Artists very much; too thin for me, frets too small, etc. Anyway, upon stripping the original ultra thick polysomething finish I discovered that this Artist AR-50 body is made of 17 pieces of wood laminated together!! Thats right; seventeen. There are five pieces across the middle layer, sandwiched in between five pieces making up the maple top, and seven pieces making up the back. I've never seen one with so many pieces. The middle and back sections appear to be made of Birch, which I have read was fairly common on painted AR-50's (this one was black). Before I cut the neck off and striped the body, the guitar actually sounded pretty good, even with the original thick, crap finish. Does anyone have any thoughts on whether using a body made of this many pieces and that much glue is a good idea, regarding tone that is? I just thought I would throw this question out there, even though I remember that it did seem to have good sound and sustain when I first got it. Maybe I have just answered my own question, and should realize that the tone will probably be even better with a new, thicker mahagany neck, and refinished with nitro lacquer!!?? Any opinions? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WezV Posted November 20, 2012 Report Share Posted November 20, 2012 yes, you have answered your own question. if you were happy with the sound before why would you not be now you know its 17 pieces? we could argue it might sound better if it was less pieces, but what does that matter if you like the sound as it is some pics would be good though - just because i dont quite believe it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stolysmaster Posted November 20, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 20, 2012 i was wrong...I counted again this morning with better light, and the back is actually 8 pieces, not 7, bringing the total to 18 pieces for the body! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stolysmaster Posted November 20, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 20, 2012 The use of Birch for the two layers for the body back is a curiousity to me as well. It just seems so unusual for a guitar body back. Birch plywood, however, is very common for speaker cabinets, including my old Klipsch Heresy stereo speakers! I once read that Birch gives a slightly hollow mid sound with nice tight bass and ample highs, but don't have any experience to confirm that. Maybe Birch was in abundance in Japan 30-35 years ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwedishLuthier Posted November 20, 2012 Report Share Posted November 20, 2012 There is a swedish builder, Robban Sarling of Ares Guitars, that uses (used) birch for necks. He said that they sounded very much like a maple neck. Haven't used it myself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stolysmaster Posted November 20, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 20, 2012 Hard to imagine that Birch and maple sound that similar because maple is seems much more dense and heavy compared to Birch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stolysmaster Posted November 20, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 20, 2012 WOW! I just figured out what I'm gonna do: I'm going to slice the entire Birch back off the body, all the way to where the maple top starts, and plane it smooth. Then trace the body onto a nice 1 1/2" thick piece of mahogany for the new back, glue the mahogany back on, then sand the edges all around flush with the top. That way I will have a guitar that is mosly mahogany, which is really what I want, and the back will be two pieces at most. What do you think? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bob123 Posted November 20, 2012 Report Share Posted November 20, 2012 sounds like a massive amount of work for something you can do from scratch dude. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dean Posted November 20, 2012 Report Share Posted November 20, 2012 Bob, it's called a learning process...... I bet the next one will be from scratch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stolysmaster Posted November 20, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 20, 2012 I just spoke with someone else who said the same thing..."a lot of work!" I am trying to save and use the top because I only know two wood working guys and neither of them know how to carve a top like on an Artist or Les Paul. If I could find someone to trace this body and make a new one out of all mahogany, INCLUDING a carved top, that would be my ideal solution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MiKro Posted November 20, 2012 Report Share Posted November 20, 2012 I made this Ratocaster awhile back using 15 pieces of mahogany. http://projectguitar.ibforums.com/index.php?showtopic=46786&hl=ratocaster&st=0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim37 Posted November 21, 2012 Report Share Posted November 21, 2012 sounds like a lot of work just to save the top on a guitar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwedishLuthier Posted November 21, 2012 Report Share Posted November 21, 2012 Hard to imagine that Birch and maple sound that similar because maple is seems much more dense and heavy compared to Birch. Please note: I didn't made that claim. On the other hand, it was made from a very experienced luthier that I have had the oportunity to talk to and he knows his stuff. He have used Birch extensively. Have you used Birch? If not that seems lika a "tone voodoo claim". Not intended to pick a fight but I thought that was a comment that lacked some substance to it... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westhemann Posted November 21, 2012 Report Share Posted November 21, 2012 Not to go all "tone voodoo",but IMO tightness of grain has more to do with "tone" than density...and both maple and birch are very tight grained,as is alder...and all of those woods are considered "bright" Of course,Basswood is also tightly grained and is not bright at all..so there are still holes in the theory Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stolysmaster Posted November 21, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 21, 2012 Hard to imagine that Birch and maple sound that similar because maple is seems much more dense and heavy compared to Birch. Please note: I didn't made that claim. On the other hand, it was made from a very experienced luthier that I have had the oportunity to talk to and he knows his stuff. He have used Birch extensively. Have you used Birch? If not that seems lika a "tone voodoo claim". Not intended to pick a fight but I thought that was a comment that lacked some substance to it... If you read my statement again you will notice that I said "Hard to imagine...". Another one of my previously owned Artists had a Birch back, so i guess I "have used it", and there was no "claim" in my comment. Speaking of "substance", I appreciate the thought prevoking comment above from Westhemann, even though he admits some problems with the "tightness of grain" theory. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwedishLuthier Posted November 21, 2012 Report Share Posted November 21, 2012 Hard to imagine = doubtful, at least in my book. You claimed it was hard to imagine, meaning you questioned my claim. I gave you some second hand info from a very experienced builder that "have used it" as in "have built several necks of birch". To me that is a quite weighty argument. I did listen to the guys experience. If you want to do that is entirely up to you. I'm not going to insist. Peace Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stolysmaster Posted November 21, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 21, 2012 Hard to imagine = doubtful, at least in my book. You claimed it was hard to imagine, meaning you questioned my claim. I gave you some second hand info from a very experienced builder that "have used it" as in "have built several necks of birch". To me that is a quite weighty argument. I did listen to the guys experience. If you want to do that is entirely up to you. I'm not going to insist. Peace Well, at least you "won't insist"...now I can rest comfortably. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bob123 Posted November 21, 2012 Report Share Posted November 21, 2012 Bob, it's called a learning process...... I bet the next one will be from scratch. i TOTALLY appreciate this, however. to cut the top off (accurately), get new blanks, glue em up. glue the top to the body, reroute everything.... hes really better off just using the existing body as a template to build a new one lol Carving the top is the EASY part. You can do it with a power sander, grinder, chisel, whatever tools you have really. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stolysmaster Posted November 21, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 21, 2012 Bob, it's called a learning process...... I bet the next one will be from scratch. i TOTALLY appreciate this, however. to cut the top off (accurately), get new blanks, glue em up. glue the top to the body, reroute everything.... hes really better off just using the existing body as a template to build a new one lol Carving the top is the EASY part. You can do it with a power sander, grinder, chisel, whatever tools you have really. I have come to the conclusion that you are right...I should start from scratch "using the existing body as a template to build a new one"! That is why I started a new thread to solicit someone to build a body with a carved top for me. Thanks for this input. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prostheta Posted November 21, 2012 Report Share Posted November 21, 2012 I have been working with Birch heavily recently and can say that it shares a lot of mechanical properties in common with Maple to the point that I would consider good Birch interchangeable with some Maples. The stability is the only issue I would bear in mind as Birch does not grow as large or straight as Maples so lamination is a good practice in order to control the long term geometry of the workpiece. I would not consider lamination to be a negative aspect if it is done well and the individual parts chosen for a purpose. Certainly, laminating can be carried out to use wood that might otherwise be scrapped due to minor defects or undesirable aspects however it can also produce a workpiece that possesses that which a single piece might not. For Birch or other trees that rarely grow straight and true (Sapele, anyone?) cutting the pieces up and laminating them releases any internal tensions which would otherwise appear when you don't want them to....in the finished item. Every laminated neck blank I have made and used in the last ten or so years has been admirably stable. Moreso than the majority of "quality" single piece necks. I'm definitely in the "lamination is a good thing" camp. Tonewise, Birch is a very traditional wood that has been used in acoustic instruments well before amplified music, specifically including drums. Drummers really love their Birch kits for the natural acoustic one. It is not mid-heavy or "weird" and has a solid bass response with snappy highs. How this works in a neck for an electric instrument is almost debatable as I believe that quality matters far more than voodoo'ing up a tone. For an acoustic guitar, certainly....less so for an electric I think. It is very heavy and I am making a couple of basses which feature Birch heavily in the body. I'm interested in learning how they stack up against Maple, especially the chambered bass. Not sure what question I was answering or which statement/opinion I was adding to or whatever. Just a bit of Birch info and a lamination rant I guess. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bob123 Posted November 22, 2012 Report Share Posted November 22, 2012 Hey man, I wasn't trying to bust your balls or demotivate you from trying, I just approach these things pragmatically as possible. Id say give it a go! No one gets experience by paying others to do it for them Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prostheta Posted November 22, 2012 Report Share Posted November 22, 2012 There are only 24hrs in one day though, plus the cost of tooling up outweighs the return of only one instrument. If you're going to build, you need to be committed. In both senses of the word. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melvyn Hiscock Posted December 7, 2012 Report Share Posted December 7, 2012 Well, 18 pieces is now the most I have heard of one one guitar. However, I have seen a Les Paul with a lot. It was a 20th anniversary model and that had a fourteen piece body. One across the back, a veneer between that and the next lot of mahogany which was 7 piece, another veneer and then a fiver piece top. I read a lot of people's opinons on lamination, some of which is couched in pseudo science, but I have yet to see any properly researched work on it. There may be some, I have just not seen any. I agree with the other people though, if you are going to do that much work to a guitar........ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VesQ Posted December 10, 2012 Report Share Posted December 10, 2012 I´m using finger jointed oak laminate for top and back on LP I´´m building. I don´t even want count how many pieces there are. I´´m thinking to have it finished with oil or clear lacquer. I know they call me crazy.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westhemann Posted December 10, 2012 Report Share Posted December 10, 2012 I have a guitar planned where the entire top will be 3/4" T&G oak flooring...going to epoxy it all very heavily and see what I get from it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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