Conflicted on how wood works on an electric guitar

[PRSpoggers]

Unlike with acoustic guitars with bracings and sound bars and bass bars and sound posts, there isn't much like that on an electric guitar. However, I go by Paul Reed Smith's logic and evidence of how wood affects tone in reference to electric guitars. His 21 rules of tone really interest me and I crafted my own little list (21 or 23 rules I think) and it goes along his lines. I believe that there are factors like the dryness of the wood and how resonant it is and how vibrations are transferred throughout the instrument. However I have this contradictory feeling about how there are pickups and the wood isn't doing anything to it, it's just the pickups and the magnets picking up the vibration of the strings. Yet guitars resonate, whether it be acoustic or electric. I picked up the guitar I now own (a PRS SE Custom 24) and this thing resonated very well!! It sustained so much and it just vibrated. Does something like the density or thickness and weight of the wood affect the way it sounds?

[Bizman62]

I hear the word "tonewood" lurking around!

You're right, both in that pickups make the sound of an electric guitar and in that some guitars vibrate forever like yours. Sustain is not tone but when you have it you can concentrate on your music instead of struggling with making the notes last long enough.

3 hours ago, PRSpoggers said:

Does something like the density or thickness and weight of the wood affect the way it sounds?

They all affect but not necessarily directly. I've heard both thin and thick guitars resonate well, as well as light and heavy ones. Density... well, that's two fold as well! I'd rather talk about springiness and stiffness than those three. Compare the guitar wood to a metal springs: A steel spring will vibrate forever, a brass spring like those in connectors are springy enough only to maintain the connection.

[Drak]

I will tell you a thing...

I've been on various guitar forums for probably ~30 years (that's a bit of a long time, I do agree).

The question you posited here I've seen asked over several hundred times in those years.

Is it fact...or fantasy? Is there really something to it? Where is the meat on that bone?

Can we use Inductive Reasoning to form genuine conclusions...or is it merely tasty pixie dust sprinkles on a Unicorn's pure golden ass?

This question is like the High Priest of Rorschach tests for anyone who has ever strummed guitar strings.

So what I started to do some decades ago when someone would ask this question...

Is to use it to psychoanalyze all the responders on the thread for their psychological / behavioral makeup.

And sometimes I've seen these threads go over 50-60 pages with dozens of responders, ...tho probably not here...

Cuz...part of my professional life is sales, and part of what I do is figure people out, and rather quickly.

And I've seen people just explode at each other and ridicule each other and spew violent typographical vitriol, Over ink blots!

Personally, I don't much care about the ink blot picture because I paint many of them myself.

And when the ink blot picture is finished, I say 'Yes, there's something there of interest'.

But what each person sees and the lengths they will go to, to prove their vision (whatever it is) is the 'correct one' and why that is true...

Tells you everything you need to know about them as a person, and how they typically conduct themselves as a human being, generally.

And so, I have no answer except to say 'Yes, that is an interesting picture, don't you agree?'

With tongue firmly planted in cheek, and broadly smiling that we can both appreciate a good ink blot picture.

[Crusader]

On 12/25/2020 at 12:05 AM, PRSpoggers said:

.....Does something like the density or thickness and weight of the wood affect the way it sounds?

Yes as I understand it, the strings adopt the tonal characteristics of whatever they are attached to. The vibrations of the wood, nut, saddle etc. affect the vibrations in the string and this is then is picked up by the pickups

[PRSpoggers]

9 hours ago, Crusader said:

Yes as I understand it, the strings adopt the tonal characteristics of whatever they are attached to. The vibrations of the wood, nut, saddle etc. affect the vibrations in the string and this is then is picked up by the pickups

This really reminds me of a quote from Paul Reed Smith of PRS guitars where he said "Everything that touches the string is god" and that was from a ted talk of his and everything has an effect on the way things sound. Overseas and import guitars use cheaper materials and pot metals. The nut on your import guitar is probably the same material your PVC pipes that connect to your sump pump are made of! I noticed that import guitars use lighter materials like zinc and other cheap pot metals just don't add anything, they subtract. Paul also said guitars are subtractive instruments, when we add something that we think will subtract what was bad before, we are actually adding to the subtractive-ness. Put 6 in and 5.9 out. Guitars are just wires and wood and physics, it's you that puts the soul into it! 

[komodo]

It's a Christmas miracle from Drak!

[curtisa]

12 hours ago, PRSpoggers said:

This really reminds me of a quote from Paul Reed Smith of PRS guitars where he said "Everything that touches the string is god"

He also says some pretty dubious stuff as well, such as that the tuners or the amount of plasticisers in the finish make a significant difference to the tone of a solid body guitar that they must be accounted for. Paul, while his company makes some very attractive guitars, is also an A-grade marketer and his Ted talk highlights that admirably

Getting back to the original crux of your question, at this early stage in your building journey I think you're better served just exploring and enjoying the process of building a guitar for what it is, rather than getting hung up on what mystique (if indeed, there is any) is to be found in the marriage of a particular combination of species of timbers in a body or how much resin has crystalised in an ebony fretboard.

[mistermikev]

well, I won't miss the opportunity to get analyzed by a psycho so... here goes:

I often think about things in relative terms.  so... it seems it is generally agreed upon that the wood plays a significant role to the sound in acoustics... and it is generally more contested on solid bodies.  So I think "at what point does an acoustic become an electric?"  In other words... if you take an acoustic... and start adding wood... where is the crossover point where the "tonewood" starts to be inaudible?  Similarly... how much wood can you remove from an electric before the "tonewood" becomes significantly audible?  just a thin guitar?  a thinline?  335 style hollowbody with a solid wood center block?  full hollow like an es295?  

I don't believe it ever 'stops' mattering... it is just less and less a significant part of the total makeup.  so it matters, and to what degree... well who cares because even if it's .00001% that is going to matter more or less to each person.  

further, pickups... sure they are magnetic... is magnetism influenced by materials around it?  I think so.  further, lets disregard that... is the vibration of a string influenced by the presence or lack of material around it?  I would say yes.  Is it influenced by the density and rigidity of the material around it?  I would say yes.  is the strings own vibration influenced by the reflection off of said material?  I think so. 

again... is it significan't?  well that's a matter of opinion/taste/perspective - so in my mind there can be no right or wrong... but I would say that it would be hard to argue that it makes zero difference. 

conclusion: If the vibration of the string is influenced, and that vibration of the string in turn influences the resultant disturbance in the magnetic field... seems reasonable that the type/density/rigidity of the wood has some sort of influence on the sound of a guitar.  (I know... really going out on a limb here).

I would now like my free evaluation as promised.

going to go read up on prs 21 rules... there is some amount of truth in everything... even if the author has a vested interest in the sway... so will see if I can find those slivers there.

[Drak]

Happy to oblige, on the house this time.

You get one point (+) right off the bat for having a heightened awareness for noticing my psychopathy.

What came to mind first was an agreeable-minded 'Can't we all just get along' personality.

The repeated 'I would say yes' is couched in a very agreeable way, so as not to create conflict.

(Of course I understand we're on a forum with rules and etiquette, I'm stating this as if it were person-to-person, which this is not).

So, the personality characteristic...The flip-side of that type of stance (usually) is conflict avoidance.

This doesn't work when the other person has no fear of conflict and will engage to win at all costs.

Purely goal-oriented, zero sum personalities (I will win, so you will lose) will steamroll right through a 'can't we all just get along' person.

And they are most definitely out there, and I kind of enjoy dealing with them when I run across them.

I am not conflict avoidant, nor do I believe in a zero-sum mentality.

 

I would also throw in (my healthy cynicism at work) that anything written by someone in the field with product to sell is marketing.

So anything they say that would promote their sales or their Image, I find heavily tainted (with taint) and would cast it aside as kompromat.

Nothing exists in a vacuum, and there is meaning behind everything a person says or does as a sum of their exported actions out into the world.

Most people just don't take the time to look for it or acknowledge the (usually obvious) meaning implied.

They want to keep their 'map of the world' intact, tho it may be a very outdated (and sometimes over-innocent) map that needs some updating.

So PRS, running a company-for-profit, venerating on guitar tone attributes, I chalk up to his future sales and personal public image enhancement.

And so wouldn't take it seriously.

Predatory? Possibly. Goals-Oriented? Probably. Image-enhancing? Definitely. So it's all about him in the end, not you.

This all taints the core information (for me) as indigestible.

 

On a funnier side-note...

Your paragraph where you pose the question then provide your answer made me laugh.

It reminded me (not implying you at all here, it just reminded me) of people who end every sentence in a vocal 'upswing'.

As if everything they say, they're not making a statement, but posing a question, even when they're making statements..

I was watching a YT a few months ago about car soundproofing where the guy did it every...single...sentence, for half an hour.

He is telegraphing to the world that he is extremely unsure of himself and has very little (if any) confidence in himself.

People who exude natural personal confidence either hold a very even tone or end sentences on a downswing.

That includes women. It cuts across all genres, ages, races, etc.

Like they're landing the plane with every sentence, not taking off. But it's natural, they don't even know they're doing it.

 

On the strangely opposite side of that spectrum...

This year, (usually on political shows), I have never heard people begin sentences with the word 'LOOK' like I have this year.

Like they all (recently, too) went to the same marketing promotional school or something.

Used sporadically and naturally, it can be effective and evokes confidence in the listener that the speaker has confidence in themselves.

But when it is used to start every sentence (and I have heard it done) it becomes obvious that it is being used as a (cheap) manipulation tactic.

And then, to me, makes the person look like a complete moron for not being able to formulate their own clean sentences.

It elicits the exact opposite effect they were trying to achieve, that they don't have confidence and need to rely on 'gimmicks'.

 

Now about those 21 tone tips...

 

 

 

 

[Gogzs]

I like this video when it comes to tonewood:

Do Heavier Guitars *REALLY* Sustain Longer? - Let's Find Out!! - YouTube

But I might be biased since I really love thin bodied guitars that are on the lighter and more ergonomic side. Also, bare in mind that PRS built a rather thin guitar for Herman Li (along the Ibanez S-series that Herman Li usually plays)

(2) Watch | Facebook

So this gets us to the "if you have a stake in it...". In Croatia, we have a saying that goes like: "para vrti di burgija ne moze", translated it would be like "Money keeps drilling where a drill bit fails".

EDIT: Also, when it comes to the tone of an electric guitar, I'd rather plug in a cheap guitar into an expensive amp and EQ out the shortcomings of the guitar, than play a PRS on some cheap shitty chinese amp with poor loudspeakers. As long as the pickups are okayish, a good amp will bring it to life.

Edited December 28, 2020 by Gogzs

[mistermikev]

13 hours ago, Drak said:

Happy to oblige, on the house this time.

You get one point (+) right off the bat for having a heightened awareness for noticing my psychopathy.

What came to mind first was an agreeable-minded 'Can't we all just get along' personality.

The repeated 'I would say yes' is couched in a very agreeable way, so as not to create conflict.

(Of course I understand we're on a forum with rules and etiquette, I'm stating this as if it were person-to-person, which this is not).

So, the personality characteristic...The flip-side of that type of stance (usually) is conflict avoidance.

This doesn't work when the other person has no fear of conflict and will engage to win at all costs.

Purely goal-oriented, zero sum personalities (I will win, so you will lose) will steamroll right through a 'can't we all just get along' person.

And they are most definitely out there, and I kind of enjoy dealing with them when I run across them.

I am not conflict avoidant, nor do I believe in a zero-sum mentality.

 

I would also throw in (my healthy cynicism at work) that anything written by someone in the field with product to sell is marketing.

So anything they say that would promote their sales or their Image, I find heavily tainted (with taint) and would cast it aside as kompromat.

Nothing exists in a vacuum, and there is meaning behind everything a person says or does as a sum of their exported actions out into the world.

Most people just don't take the time to look for it or acknowledge the (usually obvious) meaning implied.

They want to keep their 'map of the world' intact, tho it may be a very outdated (and sometimes over-innocent) map that needs some updating.

So PRS, running a company-for-profit, venerating on guitar tone attributes, I chalk up to his future sales and personal public image enhancement.

And so wouldn't take it seriously.

Predatory? Possibly. Goals-Oriented? Probably. Image-enhancing? Definitely. So it's all about him in the end, not you.

This all taints the core information (for me) as indigestible.

 

On a funnier side-note...

Your paragraph where you pose the question then provide your answer made me laugh.

It reminded me (not implying you at all here, it just reminded me) of people who end every sentence in a vocal 'upswing'.

As if everything they say, they're not making a statement, but posing a question, even when they're making statements..

I was watching a YT a few months ago about car soundproofing where the guy did it every...single...sentence, for half an hour.

He is telegraphing to the world that he is extremely unsure of himself and has very little (if any) confidence in himself.

People who exude natural personal confidence either hold a very even tone or end sentences on a downswing.

That includes women. It cuts across all genres, ages, races, etc.

Like they're landing the plane with every sentence, not taking off. But it's natural, they don't even know they're doing it.

 

On the strangely opposite side of that spectrum...

This year, (usually on political shows), I have never heard people begin sentences with the word 'LOOK' like I have this year.

Like they all (recently, too) went to the same marketing promotional school or something.

Used sporadically and naturally, it can be effective and evokes confidence in the listener that the speaker has confidence in themselves.

But when it is used to start every sentence (and I have heard it done) it becomes obvious that it is being used as a (cheap) manipulation tactic.

And then, to me, makes the person look like a complete moron for not being able to formulate their own clean sentences.

It elicits the exact opposite effect they were trying to achieve, that they don't have confidence and need to rely on 'gimmicks'.

 

Now about those 21 tone tips...

 

 

 

 

well, in your defense I DID encourage you.