jaycee Posted August 2, 2007 Report Share Posted August 2, 2007 "I feel very strongly that what keeps aspiring students stuck in the dilettante level, and from progressing towards professionalism, is this very inspirational-sounding, romantic quest for perfection. Perfection: phooey! Perfection is the enemy of the Good. I've seen too many indulging this illusion, get stuck fine-sanding each kerfing chip and then crash-burning out of the craft. I know many professionals and they all had to get past this perfection-quest to become successful, world-class luthiers. I'm unimpressed by perfection: A machine run by a complete nincompoop can cut a microscopically flat surface on a piece of wood, far flatter than any Old World Master ever could. Far more difficult is to create a guitar with Soul, with artistry, with uniqueness, with Magic. And to get there you've got to build many, many guitars. Perfection keeps you stuck forever trying to finish your fifth guitar. Leave perfect for the engineers. Leave art for the Artist". William Cumpiano I just love that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick500 Posted August 2, 2007 Report Share Posted August 2, 2007 I like that quote. I'm well on my way to never producing anything perfect, so, so far so good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GregP Posted August 2, 2007 Report Share Posted August 2, 2007 It's great. I need to take that to heart... I'm not "perfectionist" by any stretch, but I DO get stalled when I become uncertain if I'm going to be able to execute a technique. And when I finally 'give in' and say "it's only wood..." the results are usually OK anyhow. Greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WezV Posted August 2, 2007 Report Share Posted August 2, 2007 i think i need that on my website!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westhemann Posted August 2, 2007 Report Share Posted August 2, 2007 If you don't strive for perfection in your work,you will never even get close. sounds like loser talk to me... It is just semantics,really...I promise you his idea of an "imperfect" guitar only means the stuff that really doesn't matter...like the internal bracing of anacoustic,or the finish inside the control cavity or beneath a floyd...it in no way means to just hack it all together and cry "GOOD ENOUGH!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Setch Posted August 2, 2007 Report Share Posted August 2, 2007 I think he is referring to striving for a theoretical best, trying to make every single detail look flawless like a digital rendering. It's easy to obsess to the point of aiming for targets which are unachievable, especially since (im my experience) your ability to a critically assess your work will improve significantly faster than your ability to produce work which meets your new standards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WezV Posted August 2, 2007 Report Share Posted August 2, 2007 we should all obviously strive for perfection but i always point out to the people that buy my guitars that it is still not something i have achieved, particularly when it comes to finishes!! I tell them to go buy a PRS if they are after a guitar that looks perfect. mine will play and sound as good as they possibly can and look pretty good too but under close scrutiny would not win a battle gainst the PRS finishers - - - whether thats important or not i am not the one to ask. but the people who buy my guitars always seem pretty happy . I always remember reading about tony zemaitis' guitars. He made 6-10 guitars a year and they are highly sought after and go for huge sums of money. apparently they play and sound great but most had quite a few visual flaws on close inspection. The various copies are apparently more perfect than tony ever achieved but thats not why people brought his guitars!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fryovanni Posted August 2, 2007 Report Share Posted August 2, 2007 I can't say I fully agree with what he is saying. Taken to an extream, he is most certainly right. However although I think many would take that as "don't worry it is good enough". People sometimes like to use CNC as some kind of scape goat. Since a bimbo can make a CNC work(which is not the case) and get perfect results it is not important to produce the best work you can. This makes no sense to me, and I do not believe a "master" craftsman ever got to that level by thinking that way. If you have a jointer that is not giving you a good edge, should you say it is good enough? or set the machine up properly so it will do the job correctly. Should you strive to slam out your first five guitars with no regard to quality of your work. Or should you work dilligently to make each guitar better than the last. One very well built guitar will teach you more than five sloppy ones(IMO). Improving tooling and techniques builds speed and accuracy. Understanding the instrument you are making is an absolute must. Taking your time to get details as tight as you are able improves your technique, speed and produces solid results. Short cuts, not understanding what you are doing and just moving on, rushing and accepting poor results leads to bad habbits and never allows you to become a better builder. I am sure he did not mean to say accept sloppy work. I am sure he was aiming his message at people that don't get in there and start doing the work because of fear of failure, or never accept any level of accuracy even if it is quite good and certainly the best possible effort they could offer. On these points I would agree. I believe most fear is based on lack of understanding, and I believe the cure for that is to just get in their and study the subject, understand the task and function, spend the time to build proper jigs that will actually make the task more accurate and less frustrating, then work with care and do the absolute best you are capable at that time. If you find a flaw in the jig, method, or process take the time to remedy the issue. At that point it will have a platform to accell at the task. I would also say that I believe a guitar is not pure art by any means, nor is it pure science by the any stretch. This is a craft that blends both science and the functionality of an instrument with room for artistry within the bounds of the function. Not an engineering, nor a sculpter, maybe an architect. The fact that "perfection" will never exist because it is not definable in a guitar. Makes building them more fun, and more of a personal expression(art). For what its worth, thats is my take . Peace,Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToneMonkey Posted August 2, 2007 Report Share Posted August 2, 2007 Leave perfect for the engineers. Leave art for the Artist Ahhhhh, crap. I'm doomed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ihocky2 Posted August 2, 2007 Report Share Posted August 2, 2007 I'm going to go against the grain here and say that I actually I agree with him. I am sure that he is not saying throw something together that is only good enough. But more directed at the the people that agonise over minute details that only they know are there. Okay, so your finish feathers from 10 mils to 6 mils at the edge of a pickup route. Who cares? There is no point in fussing over that kind of detail. You sanded through at the edge of the pickup route, that is something to fuss over. I'll throw in a quote that I am a fan of though. "Good judgement comes from experience, experience comes from bad judgement". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Setch Posted August 2, 2007 Report Share Posted August 2, 2007 An example of my take on 'theorectial perfection' is the LP neck joint. I did a very nice job on my LP, but it fell short of my expectations - the fretboard didn't meet the top of the guitar with a prefectly crisp line (very minimal finish built up at the joint) and the binding didn't all flow together seamlessly - the joints were tight, but not invisible. It was only after inspecting many, many LPs in shops that I realised my neck joint was head and shoulders better than any Gibson had managed, and so my goal posts moved. My previous target was based on a theoretical 'perfect' job, which simply isn't realistic. Likewise with swirls in finish - I chased my tail for ages trying to get rid of the *really, super uber uber* fine swirls left after buffing out. No matter what I did, they were still there. Then I read a comment by a builder who has very good nitro finishes, who essentially said 'get it looking really good, then stop'. It'll never be perfect if you look too closely. Everyone who has seen the guitars in question has been wowed by the gloss i got, in spite of my niggling frustration with swirls. It's good to be your own harshest critic, but don't let it cripple you. Remember, the only person who never makes a mistake is the person who never does anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soapbarstrat Posted August 2, 2007 Report Share Posted August 2, 2007 I'm unimpressed by perfection: A machine run by a complete nincompoop can cut a microscopically flat surface on a piece of wood, far flatter than any Old World Master ever could. Far more difficult is to create a guitar with Soul, with artistry, with uniqueness, with Magic. Awww, ain't that cute in an old hippy kinda way. I can imagine him saying all that at some acoustic guitar camp, where a bunch of guys are sitting around strumming on $3,000 acoustics, then all of a sudden some guy wipes the floor with everyone with a $300.00 import job. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drak Posted August 2, 2007 Report Share Posted August 2, 2007 I understand exactly what he is saying, but I can rephrase it for him somewhat, maybe it makes more sense to some... There is an expression that talks to a person's area of attention, it is called the 'chunking up' or 'chunking down' technique. 'Chunking up' refers to a person that is caught up in the miniscule, in the subatomic, in the very extreme particulars of a subject, (accountants, computer programmers, etc. are typical examples of people who live far down in chunk-land) and that person needs to 'chunk up', to broaden their approach, to look at 'the big picture', to take a step back and consider the whole project, to use broad strokes. 'Chunking down' refers to someone who cannot be bothered with the details of a subject, they can ONLY see 'the big picture', these are people who specialize in big, grandiose plans or ideas, big thinkers, idea men, but cannot take the time or don't have the patience to figure out on a daily or budgetary basis how to go about making that 'big picture' come to life. They need to 'chunk down', to examine the process, to work out the details, to give their ideas a good solid acid test as it were, to 'prove it'. Most people will naturally fall into one catagory or another, some will be extreme. A very balanced, healthy, and strong personality will be able to gracefully and effortlessly move between these areas, to chunk up and chunk down whenever it's required, and not have a rigid personality that does not allow for such mobility of thought and motion. His interpretation of this is that all junior luthiers tend to be focused hard in 'chunk down' land, and cannot bring themselves to chunk up, to look at not just the business of lutherie, the business of building instruments, but the business -of- the business, just for one example as it were.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick500 Posted August 2, 2007 Report Share Posted August 2, 2007 Like I said, I liked the quote. What I take from it is: "Aim for perfection but know you'll never 100% achieve it, and don't toss the proverbial baby out with the bath water." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Sorbera Posted August 2, 2007 Report Share Posted August 2, 2007 I can't say I fully agree with what he is saying. Taken to an extream, he is most certainly right. However although I think many would take that as "don't worry it is good enough". People sometimes like to use CNC as some kind of scape goat. Since a bimbo can make a CNC work(which is not the case) and get perfect results it is not important to produce the best work you can. This makes no sense to me, and I do not believe a "master" craftsman ever got to that level by thinking that way. If you have a jointer that is not giving you a good edge, should you say it is good enough? or set the machine up properly so it will do the job correctly. Should you strive to slam out your first five guitars with no regard to quality of your work. Or should you work dilligently to make each guitar better than the last. One very well built guitar will teach you more than five sloppy ones(IMO). Improving tooling and techniques builds speed and accuracy. Understanding the instrument you are making is an absolute must. Taking your time to get details as tight as you are able improves your technique, speed and produces solid results. Short cuts, not understanding what you are doing and just moving on, rushing and accepting poor results leads to bad habbits and never allows you to become a better builder. I am sure he did not mean to say accept sloppy work. I am sure he was aiming his message at people that don't get in there and start doing the work because of fear of failure, or never accept any level of accuracy even if it is quite good and certainly the best possible effort they could offer. On these points I would agree. I believe most fear is based on lack of understanding, and I believe the cure for that is to just get in their and study the subject, understand the task and function, spend the time to build proper jigs that will actually make the task more accurate and less frustrating, then work with care and do the absolute best you are capable at that time. If you find a flaw in the jig, method, or process take the time to remedy the issue. At that point it will have a platform to accell at the task. I would also say that I believe a guitar is not pure art by any means, nor is it pure science by the any stretch. This is a craft that blends both science and the functionality of an instrument with room for artistry within the bounds of the function. Not an engineering, nor a sculpter, maybe an architect. The fact that "perfection" will never exist because it is not definable in a guitar. Makes building them more fun, and more of a personal expression(art). For what its worth, thats is my take . Peace,Rich I think you hit the nail on the head. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westhemann Posted August 3, 2007 Report Share Posted August 3, 2007 ikewise with swirls in finish - I chased my tail for ages trying to get rid of the *really, super uber uber* fine swirls left after buffing out. No matter what I did, they were still there. Then I read a comment by a builder who has very good nitro finishes, who essentially said 'get it looking really good, then stop'. It'll never be perfect if you look too closely. Everyone who has seen the guitars in question has been wowed by the gloss i got, in spite of my niggling frustration with swirls. Hey setch,have you ever tried micromesh?I have always had the same issues on my finishes,until I used micromesh on the cavity cover of my exploder...it came out so much better than anything else...I can't reccomend it enough Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Sorbera Posted August 3, 2007 Report Share Posted August 3, 2007 ikewise with swirls in finish - I chased my tail for ages trying to get rid of the *really, super uber uber* fine swirls left after buffing out. No matter what I did, they were still there. Then I read a comment by a builder who has very good nitro finishes, who essentially said 'get it looking really good, then stop'. It'll never be perfect if you look too closely. Everyone who has seen the guitars in question has been wowed by the gloss i got, in spite of my niggling frustration with swirls. Hey setch,have you ever tried micromesh?I have always had the same issues on my finishes,until I used micromesh on the cavity cover of my exploder...it came out so much better than anything else...I can't reccomend it enough +1 Micromesh is amazing stuff. It's easier to sand with it and it leaves much fewer (less noticeable) scratches. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Setch Posted August 3, 2007 Report Share Posted August 3, 2007 I had planned to try it, maybe when I buff out the next couple of guitars. Whenever that is..... stupid day job Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brewu22 Posted August 29, 2007 Report Share Posted August 29, 2007 Remember, the only person who never makes a mistake is the person who never does anything. I used to tell the people I was training the same thing Or the worst question, is the one that is never asked.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MiKro Posted August 30, 2007 Report Share Posted August 30, 2007 ikewise with swirls in finish - I chased my tail for ages trying to get rid of the *really, super uber uber* fine swirls left after buffing out. No matter what I did, they were still there. Then I read a comment by a builder who has very good nitro finishes, who essentially said 'get it looking really good, then stop'. It'll never be perfect if you look too closely. Everyone who has seen the guitars in question has been wowed by the gloss i got, in spite of my niggling frustration with swirls. Hey setch,have you ever tried micromesh?I have always had the same issues on my finishes,until I used micromesh on the cavity cover of my exploder...it came out so much better than anything else...I can't reccomend it enough I love Micromesh. , used wet it lasts almost forever. Amazing that even a satin finish can have a shine like glass when looking at it from an oblique angle. MK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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