Gotm Rules Disscussion

[Andronico]

The GOTM rules are working well until now but I think that little modiffications could be good :

One guitar per month.

If you win, you should not be allowed to enter for three months.

The progress thread showing from beginning to the end of the construction must be posted before it can be entered into the GOTM.

[Supernova9]

If you win, you should not be allowed to enter for three months.

Totally disagree with this one - it's like it's punishing achievement. Pretty much completely against the spirit of the competition - the best guitar should win, not the one that was allowed to be entered as better guitars were forbidden due to their builders already having won.

[WezV]

yeah, but they could wait 3 months to enter something special they have built and do we want the same person winning more than 4 times a year anyway?

Personally i have started self regulating my entries - rather than enter everything i finish i am sticking to the ones i think are extra special

[Supernova9]

yeah, but they could wait 3 months to enter something special they have built and do we want the same person winning more than 4 times a year anyway?

Personally i have started self regulating my entries - rather than enter everything i finish i am sticking to the ones i think are extra special

Why have that delay though, with all the work it'll take for Brian to keep track of who's allowed to enter and when, when as from your posting the entries are somewhat self-regulating anyway. People remember who they vote for month to month, if someone enters four months worth of GOTM and wins all four, then hats off to them, because the quality of their build will be overcoming not only the competition but also people's memories that that person has already won three times previously (if that makes sense). If someone builds 12 amazing guitars in 12 months, I have absolutely no problem with them winning GOTM every month that year.

[Andronico]

If someone builds 12 amazing guitars in 12 months, I have absolutely no problem with them winning GOTM every month that year.

Probably, but the GOTM is a mix of PRO builders and amateur ones. The PRO make guitars for living, the most part of his time is occupied building guitars, but the amateur only has his free time to build. The PRO can present one guitar (at least because some of them are not working alone) for each GOTM but I think is not really possible for the amateurs... Just my reflexion...

[avengers63]

If somebody enter's a store bought guitar which they do nothing to (no part in design or building), I doubt they stand a chance on the voting poll so I wouldn't worry about it

But! What if they did.........hasn't happened yet but unless there is a rule it doesn't mean it couldn't happen

Actually, it happened in the Feb-08 GOTM.

Sir, allow me to direct your attention to this month's contest. Please notice that Trynyty's entry "The Ouroboros", while a custom ax, was comissioned and purchased. He came in 4th in a field of 9. I'd say he did alright for himself.

EDIT: SORRY!!! I posted this before reading the remainder of the comment it's quoted from. While Brian already stated his thoughts on simply designing the instrument, which this guy did, I disagree with him. As I see it, it was a purchased instrument. If I had enough money, I could contract a custom ax from Gary Kramer himself. I could hand over exact specs and a wad of cash, but I still wouldn't have built a dang thing. By Brian's thoughts, this would qualify as a "project guitar". Again, I respectfully disagree, and feel that these should not be allowed.

Edited May 27, 2008 by avengers63

[avengers63]

On other notes:

+1 to one entry per month.

+1 to having a build thread before entering. This one should be more of a 'rule of thumb' than anything else meant to deter non-contributors from entering. By example, I wouldn't complain about Perry's entry despite not having a thread beforehand because he contributes regularly.

+1 to a time limit after winning.

+1 to limiting the number or frequency of pro entries. The pros have a significant advantage over the amateurs in equipment, time, experience, etc. I have the sneaking suspicion that pros get a certain number of 'respect votes' as well.

The naming requirement seems a bit hokey. That one could be dropped or modified.

[aidlook]

On other notes:

+1 to one entry per month.

+1 to having a build thread before entering. This one should be more of a 'rule of thumb' than anything else meant to deter non-contributors from entering. By example, I wouldn't complain about Perry's entry despite not having a thread beforehand because he contributes regularly.

+1 to a time limit after winning.

+1 to limiting the number or frequency of pro entries. The pros have a significant advantage over the amateurs in equipment, time, experience, etc. I have the sneaking suspicion that pros get a certain number of 'respect votes' as well.

The naming requirement seems a bit hokey. That one could be dropped or modified.

I'd say the full video diary of Perry's build would substitute a build thread.

I'm also sceptical of the time limit, seems (as previously stated) that you're actually punishing an achievement. The rule could of course apply to pro builders to limit their entry frequency. But I don't really think there has been any problems with too many pro builders constantly winning month after month. If there where a rule about contributing a build thread (or link to a picture- or video diary) why limit the amount of info and guitar porn from pro's? As many people have said before it's pretty self-regulating and I haven't really noticed any major problems, but a rule about having pictures and info of the actual build would hopefully increase the amount of information on this site.

[zyonsdream]

how about two contests

1 amateur builder GOTM

2: pro builder GOTM

This works in two ways

1: More amateur builders will post submissions because their work will be judged amongst peers that are working within the same general skill level and to be honest, a lot of amateur builders don't post because they feel that they are at a disadvantage to the pro builders.

2: More pro builders will post submissions because it allows them to showcase and compete against only professional builders. A pro builder should beat an amateur builder every time so there isn't much to be gained but there is a bit more pride to be had if you beat a field of pro builders (and we have the best pr builders in the world on this forum.)

Having a pro and amateur GOTM seems to be a win-win situation for everyone and maybe just doing a trial month would yield more submissions.

[avengers63]

Two Categories: This seems like the optimal solution.

Time Limits: I think the idea is to limit the frequency of pro entries rather than to punish success. From the amateur's standpoint, it's dang hard to compete with a seasoned professional who can do this all day every day, while the amateur has only some weekend time & the odd evening to work with.

Build Thread: (just playing 'devil's advocate'...) Perry didn't actually post the video thread - killemall8 did. He stated in the thread that he wasn't posting them on purpose, and was disappointed that the vids were discovered. It has been sugested, and I agree, that the purpose is to disuade someone from pipping in, entering, and never being seen again. I believe the feeling is for someone to be a part of the community before participating in the contest, which is why I'd have easily given Perry a pass on not having a thread first.

[rhoads56]

Two Categories: This seems like the optimal solution.

Time Limits: I think the idea is to limit the frequency of pro entries rather than to punish success. From the amateur's standpoint, it's dang hard to compete with a seasoned professional who can do this all day every day, while the amateur has only some weekend time & the odd evening to work with.

Build Thread: (just playing 'devil's advocate'...) Perry didn't actually post the video thread - killemall8 did. He stated in the thread that he wasn't posting them on purpose, and was disappointed that the vids were discovered. It has been sugested, and I agree, that the purpose is to disuade someone from pipping in, entering, and never being seen again. I believe the feeling is for someone to be a part of the community before participating in the contest, which is why I'd have easily given Perry a pass on not having a thread first.

For the record, ive never posted up a GOTM entry without a thread. I have posted up a thread starting with an entry at the same time, but to my knowledge, ive never not had a thread. If your guitar is good enough to submit for voting, its good enough to post up so people can query, critique, question, and praise.

[avengers63]

For the record, ive never posted up a GOTM entry without a thread. I have posted up a thread starting with an entry at the same time, but to my knowledge, ive never not had a thread. If your guitar is good enough to submit for voting, its good enough to post up so people can query, critique, question, and praise.

Maybe I just missd it. I'm not trying to pick on anyone or assign actions that aren't there. If that's the way it seems, I apologize. I was just trying to use this as an example. Cool?

[killemall8]

i strongly agree about having a build thread first. i also like the idea of if you win, you cant submit for a certain amount of times. i realy think some of these should go down as permanent rules.

[Dean]

Rules are like laws ,to many of them rune the intent.It seems to me the winners of GOTM have been the guitars that should have won.It seems to me, any changes are just a effort to get a edge in winning where otherwise you would not have.The fact that you did a build and showed it off should be prize enough.It's not like you get a prize or money or fame.Less government and more living I say.I would rather see more comments on the build thread,good or bad.Also ,if I did enter a build and won against a great builder,and there are quite a few on here...it would be that much sweeter.

[WezV]

how about two contests

1 amateur builder GOTM

2: pro builder GOTM

but who decides who is what - its not like their is some level you need to get to in order to be called a pro

i seemed to get to a stage where everybody else insisted i was pro but i would still say semi-pro at best can we have a 3rd catagory

seriously i dont see the need for any changes

the only reason i said about the 3 month wait thing was because it might encourage more entries if they are not always up against the same people and it would keep GOTM nicely varied.

breaking it down into catagories just dilutes what its all about in my opinion

the one thing i would add is an end of year GOTY featuring the 12 previous winners

have a look back through the years

http://projectguitar.com/gal/gotm2008.htm

seems to work nicely, a good mix of all styles and abilities

[SwedishLuthier]

how about two contests

1 amateur builder GOTM

2: pro builder GOTM

but who decides who is what - its not like their is some level you need to get to in order to be called a pro

Exactly my thought. What am I (besides the more philosophical aspect of that question)? I build guitars 50% for own (ab)use and 50% for paying customers and a take in a considerable amount of repairs, setups, refinishes etc. But I do not run this as a full time operation. I do it in evenings and on weekends. Am I a pro?

I have the sneaking suspicion that pros get a certain number of 'respect votes' as well.

I’m not as sure as you are, seeing the quite substantial amount of more or less noobies coming in and presenting their first build in a build thread, entering it in GOTM and winning. Everybody likes an underdog.

I have up to now accepted and been totally happy with the rules (except maybe for the nick name part). They have been working and the only problem I have seen is the exploding numbers of entries. It makes it so much harder to win…

On a more serious side I think that the “one entry per month” think can be an OK adjustment as that could work as an equaliser (like the golf handicap) between pros and amateurs.

EDIT: BTW, I had a run-through of all the old GOTM winners and realised we had different pro/am categorys in 2004, right before I joined the forum. Can anyone remeber why it was that way back then, and why it was changed back to one categore?

[rhoads56]

There werent enough entries.

Also tried a 'built from scratch' and 'modified from parts' idea, but same thing.

[erikbojerik]

EDIT: BTW, I had a run-through of all the old GOTM winners and realised we had different pro/am categorys in 2004, right before I joined the forum. Can anyone remeber why it was that way back then, and why it was changed back to one categore?

Like I said back on the first page of this thread....the pro/am thing has already been tried. As Perry said, there weren't enough entries to fill two separate categories.

If you really want a good critique, perhaps we should try another guitar build-off...judging by a panel of the pros.

[rhoads56]

The three times we tried that, it fell apart too!

Even the last one, which had an 'entry fee' to make sure guys stayed committed. What was it, seven entries, 9 months, and only one guitar finished?

[erikbojerik]

The three times we tried that, it fell apart too!

Even the last one, which had an 'entry fee' to make sure guys stayed committed. What was it, seven entries, 9 months, and only one guitar finished?

Something like that.....as I see it, the problem was that the "entry fee" was due after the build was over. I think if it had been due before the start date, more guys would have stayed in.

[j. pierce]

I just want to see lots of cool guitars by other folks, it's inspiring and cool. Let the voting sort itself out. If it doesn't, oh well. In the grand scheme of things, if someone commissioned a build and it won, what's the big deal? It's not like they're running for public office or anything. It's guitar-of-the-month, that's all. I'm not convinced we need a lot of rules.

Perhaps we'd get more entries if viewing of other entries wasn't permitted until voting time? That way it's a little bit blind?

I do agree with the not needing to name the guitars - that seems a bit silly to me. But I've never named an instrument, I guess.

[SwedishLuthier]

EDIT: BTW, I had a run-through of all the old GOTM winners and realised we had different pro/am categorys in 2004, right before I joined the forum. Can anyone remeber why it was that way back then, and why it was changed back to one categore?

Like I said back on the first page of this thread....the pro/am thing has already been tried. As Perry said, there weren't enough entries to fill two separate categories.

He he, thats what happens with slightly longer threads...I forget what I read a week ago. Anyway, now we know why the pro/am idea failed back then. Whould it be different now?

[joshvegas]

I personally feel that having photos of your guitars with young ladies should be banned as it creates a disadvantage to everybody else!

But if you really want to share my email address is.....

[Prostheta]

Please don't get me the wrong way on this one, but I don't feel that entering the GOTM contest is that big a deal - to the point of me not actually wanting to do it. Am I alone in feeling that validation in this respect isn't actually as important as having built an instrument from top to tail in the first place? I do like the word "showcase" however, and I feel that a lot of people are losing the perspective of it being that by paying too much credence to the competition aspect. It's not that important, or at least it shouldn't be. I love pro builders breaking down their methods and technique to blow-by-blow accounts. That's awesome. I'm not too hot on completed instruments being banged out as a gallery of the end product.

(new paragraph for apparent Jerry Springer ending here)

Surely this is Project Guitar? If there was one thing I could change about GOTM, it would be for "competitors" to post a good gallery of in-progress pictures. If you want pictures of finished instruments, go Google a few. This forum should be a fertile ground for learning and progression, and for pros and beginners alike to share, and continue the "open pros", cottage industries and hobby builders.

Yes, this shouldn't be a springboard for free advertising, agreed.

I only read two pages of this thread because it seems to be a bit boring and perhaps redundant.

Here's an emoticon I made a few years back. Have a laugh and stop being miserable gits!

[westhemann]

These discussions kind of always go the same way.More than one category,build offs,banning pros...it never works.I think it works the best it is ever going to work the way we have it now.

I see no "easy win" for pros...Every time a "pro" enters I read at least a few posts in the voting about how "sos and so doesn't feel right voting for a pro",so they vote for another.

Is it a coincidence I always end up voting for Perry when he enters?Not in the least...Every single time I feel he has the best entry.Sometimes I see "pros" enter guitars I would not line a catbox with...The pro still has to do the work...

To be honest I don't like alot of the guitars that are entered...Pro and amatuer alike...But I am a miserable bastard most days...or at least I play one on t.v.

Anyone notice my posts make much less sense than they used to?Damn Texas sun.