Is Common Sense Dying?

[LGM Guitars]

Man, I can't get over some of the questions I've read lately, I'm not going to cite examples but it seems to me the skill of "common sense" is a dying talent. Some of the questions I've been reading are plain and simple common sense, it's easier than tying your shoes (I guess that's why some people still use velcro)

Searches not being done, no research being done on anything, it slays me. I sit here shaking my head.

For those who seem to be stuck at a 3rd grade comprehension level, might I suggest www.askjeeves.com

lol, my only request is, do some work for yourselves before you post questions, really there are no stupid questions, so I really don't think they shouldn't be asked, but it's lazyness that makes people not even try to figure things out. If nobody had done anything for themselves and just tried to ask the same questions we'd probably think the world was still flat!

[bigdguitars]

yes I agree... I am guilty of it too at times, but this instant gratification thing needs to stop...

heck I was on the MIMF for a year before I started to post... READ a book poeple. before you even post here you should have read melvins book...

HERE: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-h...8603097-4655906

[Scott Rosenberger]

You mean the world ISN'T flat?

[Gorecki]

I've learned to accept common sense isn't so common. As well as maturity is not a result of getting older.

[Thoughtless 7]

The question i usually ask are which books people would suggest, and even then its after a search...but sometimes i think the search button doesn't like me o_O

[RGGR]

Well....we live in world of instant gratification.......

So why not throw in question or two....others seem to do that around here, so why not me.....right????

....and when people don't answer your questions that quickly....you just tell 'm they suck.

Did anyone say google, tutorials on mainsite (is there a main sit to begin with)

Darn we have a search function too......(isn't that a lot of work, and isn't there a slim chance I might learn something......cause I did join here with the intention getting any smarter to begin with.....)

Although I think every newbie is entitled to at least one dumb stupid question. I know I asked a number of those. That's all part of figuring out how all this guitar building stuff actually works.

Edited March 16, 2005 by RGGR

[lovekraft]

I can live with the stupid questions - it's the tantrums that follow being told it's a stupid question that are starting to irritate me. There's an old saying where I come from - "If you're gonna be dumb, you'd better be tough!". So if you ask, "I'm a total noob - what should I paint my guitar with?", and you get an answer like, "Paint usually works - cake frosting, not so much...", and an invitation to use the search engine, get over it! Nobody here owes you any answers, and this site is about doing it yourself, so if you're not motivated enough to at least try to find the info you need, don't freak when nobody else is sufficiently motivated to do it for you.

[Southpa]

As the saying goes, "if you're going to act like an idiot, you will be treated like an idiot". If someone takes offense to a reply then they should deal with it off the board. What gets me is posts like "my guitar is broken, how do I fix it?" without providing any background information like pictures, descriptions etc. I know, thats pretty general and in most cases those posts are from people who are trying to save a buck in repair costs.

Also, I see too many people trying to fly when they don't even know how to walk yet. You NEED some basic idea of how 'lectricity works, how to solder etc. etc. before attempting to wire up a guitar. A LOT of hard work is involved at building a precision guitar. There are no easy routes and it DOES NOT happen overnight. I'm a bit tired of explaining how to troubleshoot wiring problems etc. when I find that the person doesn't even know how to solder or use and read a multimeter.

I see too many people putting forth outlandish ideas for their first build when they should be concentrating on the basics. Stick with the tried and true designs, methods etc. and then things can get weird when you know what you are doing.

Edited March 16, 2005 by Southpa

[Devon Headen]

All I can say is I agree completely. I think it could have something with PG getting more exposure, but it seems like there are a lot of people that just don't want to work at anything. That Cumpiano article someone posted the other day really makes a lot of sense. Lots of people want to be "expert guitar builders", but it's much rarer that someone's willing to make the mistakes necessary to become one. There have been several comments from new people complaining about the attitude of regular forums. I understand wanting to be prepared, but, to quote Mark Burnett, overpreparation equals paralyzation. If you aren't willing to go out and try something on your own while risking failing, you'll never get anything worthwhile done.

[Drak]

The only problem I have with a statement like the thread title is this:

If most of you really understood the Manifest Destiny, the REAL Mission Statement, of Project Guitar as Brian has envisioned it to be, then you would understand that we experienced builders are here to be -of service- to newbs, moreso than most other guitar-building-oriented websites.

Project Guitar, as far as Brian's vision is/was concerned, was ALL ABOUT helping newbs get a leg up, so we need to have more patience, more understanding, more kindness, and offer more help than most other guitar-build sites and not have our noses stuck up our own collective asses.

And I think that fact gets lost once in awhile around here. I think the vets want to start throwing their weight around and quickly forget where they are exactly, and what kind of site this was designed to be from the start, and that they are a -guest- here at Brian's house, like anyone else.

I get irritated too sometimes, but then I always remember that I am a guest here at Brians site, and I always remember what HE had in mind for this place, and then I try to keep it calm and sane (hehehe, except for the occasional fireworks-then-deleted posts)

I completely understand the question, and have felt the same way on occasion, when someone asks how to build a guitar and could you explain it all in detail to me in one post, bla bla bla, but you're supposed to be adults and understand that the more exposure this place gets, the more common that type of thing is going to be. And guess what? It's really happening!

It's part of what PG -IS-, so you can either biyatch and whine till the cows come home, or realize what kind of site you decided to be a member of and just learn to have more patience, understanding, and kindness.

An interesting choice eh? Be a spoiled brat whiner or be a person of patience and kindness.

Your choice. On a daily basis you have the choice to be whoever you want to be.

And as an old saying goes, the only thing you ever really have control of is right between your own two ears, that's all you get to change/control. The rest of the world will do as it pleases when it pleases it.

[MzI]

^^^^ Daily words of wisdom from Drak

MzI

[Maiden69]

I'm with Drak here... BUT ... also lovekraft has a good point, I too can live with the dumbest of simplest question, but when before the question is a statement like, "I know it's being asked x-times", or "I'm too lazy to look it up myself" trips a rage-o-meter that got me fired up and ready to squeeze some rounds down range!!!

I think it's not common sense that is dying, is that everything in life is being made so easy that a lot of people take this for granted.

Just like that dumb kid on the news that got slapped by the teacher for not paying the right respect due to the Nation... is the system that is responsible for this actions, and there is nothing we can do about it, other than either

ignore the poster

or

ignore the poster

[Ragasguitars]

I agree with Drak also, Teachers need to take on the good with the bad, and thats what most experienced people here are on this forum, teachers. You have to be willing to hear the same question over and over, its part of the unknown and unwanted responsibility of the teachers, or the mods in this case, and Brian does a wonderful job.

Most new and several experienced guitar builders have probably never been on a forum before so you also have to take that into account.

On the topic of stupid questions, yes there are some questions that deserve stupid answers, like, "I've never seen a red strat, is it alright to paint a strat red?" Not a real question asked here but not too far from the truth of many questions asked here, just don't want to single anybody out. So yes, common sense is dying, and not just on the web, be careful in the real world to, there are idiots everywhere.

[jay5]

I have seen this kind of stuff happen on several unrelated boards over the years. The larger the community gets, the less overall cohesion there is. That aside, would it be possible to have some sort of buffer period after someone registers before they are alowed to actually post? That way they could browse the "archives" for a bit and become farmiliar with how things work. I don't suggest this as a punishment sort of thing but I would imagine it might weed out a few people who jump on just to respond negatively to a certain topic or user. If they couldnt post immediately it might quell some of that nonsence. Any thoughts?

[SprocketBoy]

Noooo way!!.................WE LANDED ON THE MOON!!!!!!!

[Scott Rosenberger]

Any Newb who thinks they're treated roughly here should have a peek Here.

It's a Mustang Owners Forum. Just randomly glance through the 4.6 section and you'll see what kind of idiots and ignorant people can be on Internet Forums. You'll get stuff like this when you ask a redundant question

[LGM Guitars]

Drak,

While I agree with you about what this forum is all about, the basic premise of asking a question without doing ANY research or thinking on your own for a moment, ie: instant gratification: tells me straight out, that a person is not going to have the aptitude to build a guitar to start with.

If your time is so valuable, or you just don't feel like taking the time to do a search, or read through a few forum sections, you probably don't have the time or patience to build a guitar.

So many people come here wanting to be the next Les Paul, or next Jean Larrivee, but they can't take 2 minutes to use a search feature or even have the patience to decide what section is the right one for their particular question?

That immediately tells me they should go sit down, and really think about if they want to build a guitar or not. It's not an overnight project, and to be perfectly honest, I'd rather be yelled at for telling somebody "if you don't have the patience or time to do a search to find the answer, you don't have time to repaint your guitar" than have them get 1/4 way through and realize they've screwed up their guitar.

Maybe I get more edgy because I had to teach myself basically everything about guitars, I started working on them before PG existed. I learned 99% of what I know "trial by fire" so to speak, as a result, I've learned things you cannot learn by asking questions on a message board. When things are all spelt out for you, you tend to not pay attention to what you're doing, or you forget what you did last time.

Looking for guidance is one thing, that is what teachers provide, looking for an outright straight answer is something only bad teachers do. No knowledge is gained by having everything handed to you.

If a newbie is made to search for a question that is on this board, chances are, once they find it, they will read it deeper, remember it, and utilize that information better. If it's just typed out, they'll probably skim over it, and forget half of it by the time they try it.

There is a world of knowledge to be gained by good teachers, and there is also a wealth of skill learned in the school of hard knocks.

PG is here for guidance, not to hand things to people on a silver platter, 90% of guitar building is common sense, you CAN figure it out if you have the desire and passion to really do it, if you're not willing to put that effort in, I guarantee you'll never build a kickass instrument.....

[eddiefletcher]

And you think the forums bad... wait for this one. My wife is an EXPERT SHOPPER! So the other day I came home and the conversations went like this...

Me: hey dals I got the new jacket you wanted on order for you.

Her: oh thanks what colour did you get?

Me: Black as you wanted.

Her: so is it dark?

Me: Dals its black...

Her: yeah so is it dark?

i had to leave the room.

BTW i agree LGM it must be extremely frustrating. My wife is also a kindergarten teacher so i can see both sides here, but common sense comes with experience and thats something you dont get as you said unless you stick you neck out. If you stick your neck out without even bothering to do ANY research then you need to learn. Simple as that.

[Kevan]

Wife: "So, is it dark?"

Eddie: "No honey. It's 2 in the afternoon. The sun is still up."

Fletch: "There we're in sort of a gray area..."

Editor: "Well, how gray?"

Fletch: "Charcoal."

[sepultura999]

i don't mind the questions, because to someone who has answered it a million times, the one asking has only been wanting to know a million times.

I think people should at least try to look, and if they can't find it, post a thread saying something like "i'm wanting to do this (write specific details regarding what you're trying to do) and i searched on the forum but cannot find anything, this also includes the main site. Any help?". It kinda gets me annoyed when people go "sorry for the noob question" because it's just a few seconds waste of time of reading, however, remember, the new members may feel a bit intimidated. They rush the topic also cause they're really eager to get into building because it fascinates them, they're inpatient, or both.

"sorry for the noob question and for not searching on the forum or main site and any other excuse i can think of but how do you paint a guitar?" The topics have to be specific, otherwise it's like being asked to write an essay on a Stephan Hawking book.

It also isn't cool when advice is given when it's false, however, imo it's fine when someone goes "what about if you ______", that way the previous question and that question gets answered, is taken into consideration, and tells the original poster to avoid a possible whole new hassle and to keep checking the topic. I'm sure I've made mistakes on this forum, but i'm starting to get the whole idea around here, especially since this is the first forum i've been on longer then a week due to the friendlyness around here.

just my opinion.

-Jamie

[eddiefletcher]

Wife:  "So, is it dark?"

Eddie:  "No honey.  It's 2 in the afternoon.  The sun is still up."

Fletch:  "There we're in sort of a gray area..."

Editor:  "Well, how gray?"

Fletch:  "Charcoal."

←

Well I really dont think theres any need to be that abusive Kev I mean come on trying to lighten the mood.. ( sarcasm just incase )

[GregP]

For every set of newbies with dumb questions, there is usually at least one "new advisor" around, too. At times it hasn't been the case, but lately it's usually true that the advice given by even relatively new builders is solid, and people admit when they're not sure. That's the way it should be.

So, someone like me, who hasn't even finished a guitar yet, is still able to give advice about certain aspects because either a) we've tried it at least once; or we've read the advice as given by experienced builders enough times that we trust it.

So, while it may be annoying to answer a question for the 50th time, remember that sometimes, with a bit of patience, it'll be answered by a person who gets to take the opportunity to ANSWER it for the first time! And if the advice is bad, I like to think the experienced builders will step in, but otherwise, nobody's FORCING you to reply with either friendly advice OR advice with a side-order of sarcasm.

Since it's a volunteer community, in fact you can completely ignore any and all threads if you want! That's the beauty of it. If you feel compelled to answer, then perhaps you have an innate desire and ability as a 'teacher', and you should just embrace it instead of fighting it. "Ah screw it, I always end up answering anyways, so I might as well accept the mantle with grace."

Greg

[westhemann]

My avatar is NOT giving the finger.

liar

[GregP]

[javacody]

An interesting choice eh? Be a spoiled brat whiner or be a person of patience and kindness.

Drak, this is great. It's nice to know that you feel this way, becuase I know a lot of the knuckleheads complaining probably look up to you.

I also wanted to say thanks to everyone here who has helped someone. It shows the true spirit of generosity and wisdom.

Edited March 17, 2005 by javacody