Questions About Building A Guitar, Adhesives And More

[eddiewarlock]

First i wanna thank Wes and Prostheta, for answering my multiple questions and hijacking their own threads.

Let me start by saying i have built several guitars and i would call myself experienced regarding guitars, its construction and finishing.

Here are some of the guitars i've built:

So i built these guitars when i lived in Venezuela. Now i have moved to Spain. I built those guitars using local woods, like spanish cedar, katalox, purpleheart, and the ocassional maple top.

But i have never worked with maple.

I plan to make some neck thru guitars. I rarely build guitars with a 1 piece neck anymore. In fact, of the above shown guitars, only the Caparison Angelus copy guitar has a 1 piece neck, only because it is made of spanish cedar.

And i only use titebond or wood glues for glueing fretboards. The rest of the joints, neck laminations, wings, etc, i used 2-ton epoxy made by Devcon. It cured in 24 hours, it was hard as a rock, and filled gaps. Never had a problem with it.

The epoxi i have found here in Spain, which i've already bought to fix a guitar i brought with me is standard epoxi, Araldit, made by Ceys. The label reads it hardens at 6 hours, resists traction at 12 hours and its maximum resistance is reached after 3 days.

I planned to use it to glue neck laminates and body wings.

But it seems like the stuff is less than ideal.

Here are the pieces of maple i intend to use as necks:

They are rift sawn maple pieces.

I am thinking of using 1 piece thru body necks, and gluing its wings with perhaps that epoxi or maybe decent quality wood glue...

Any comments and advice even criticizing is welcomed. I feel like starting over, like i have never built a guitar before and it is very frustrating.

Edited April 28, 2013 by eddiewarlock

[pukko]

Sorry Eddie, I have little to no experience in gluing wood with epoxy so I'm of no help to you. But dang, you build some fine guitars! I don´t think I've seen what you've built before. What are you planning to build now?

[eddiewarlock]

Hej Pukko! thanks for the kind words! I usually don't post my work here as i build mostly pointy guitars.

The ones i am about to build are not exception. 2 warlocks, a rhoads, and quite possibly a Demmelition.

Glueing wood with epoxy has its benefits as epoxy doesn't content water. I only use wood glues for fretboards if i ever need to replace them, or change a truss rod.

[westhemann]

I like pointy guitars

[YetzerHarah]

I'm all for pointy too.

If you can't find an epoxy that you like, I'd just stick w/ titebond, I've used it many times & never had any problems with it that weren't my own damn fault.

[eddiewarlock]

well, for starters, i never trust the places where i take my timber to be cut and jointed. So i cover my back using epoxy.

If i use titebond, i have to order it from overseas as well...

[avengers63]

I'm going to gop out on a completely un-informed limb here........ I would have no doubt that there is a perfectly good wood glue sold where you now live that would not have to be shipped in from a different continent. Woodworking is practiced dang near everywhere, so I can't believe that in the civilized world you would NOT be able to find a product or tool that would work.

As for not trusting your suppliers - probably a wise move. Is there a reason why you can't get a jointer so that you can have glue-ready edges? If money is an issue and you know how to use the hand tools, do some research into a shooting board. This will do the same job as a jointer for a LOT less money.

Why would I push for wood glue? It's the right product for the job. Yes, epoxy will do it as well, possibly better in some cases. I've hsed it for guitars and other woodworking projects as well, and for the gap-filling reasons you stated. BUT wood glue has one purpose - glue wood together. Specialized products tend to be better at their specialized task than multi-purpose products.

[westhemann]

There is a lot of truth in what Avengers posted.Fretboards are the one exception because of the water in the glue making it curl away from the joint.It makes it tough for me because my boards come pre-radiused and pre-slotted.I have no such issue with epoxy

[demonx]

Go to a local joinery supplies and ask what yellow glues they have. Surely they'll sell an F9 which is pretty much a industry standard for joinery. A lot of the time they'll sell a unbranded glue that's bottled on site, but will be labelled F9

[eddiewarlock]

I'm going to gop out on a completely un-informed limb here........ I would have no doubt that there is a perfectly good wood glue sold where you now live that would not have to be shipped in from a different continent. Woodworking is practiced dang near everywhere, so I can't believe that in the civilized world you would NOT be able to find a product or tool that would work.

As for not trusting your suppliers - probably a wise move. Is there a reason why you can't get a jointer so that you can have glue-ready edges? If money is an issue and you know how to use the hand tools, do some research into a shooting board. This will do the same job as a jointer for a LOT less money.

Why would I push for wood glue? It's the right product for the job. Yes, epoxy will do it as well, possibly better in some cases. I've hsed it for guitars and other woodworking projects as well, and for the gap-filling reasons you stated. BUT wood glue has one purpose - glue wood together. Specialized products tend to be better at their specialized task than multi-purpose products.

No, you are right John. I am sure there's good wood glue here. I just never know where to go. Back in my country it wasn't so hard, you'd ask around, and if they didn't have it you could ask them " well, do you know where i can get it?" Not here.

They don't know, or won't tell you. Whatever. But i find it frustrating not knowing of a store that sells stuff for carpenters and woodworking. I don't know if those places simply don't exist or they are secret, or am i missing something.

They don't sell router bits, no spokeshaves, no drill press, no veneers, no pipe keys, etc etc etc...and i live in Spain's 4th largest city. Where i come from is a town of population of 180.000, in Venezuela, south America, and i could find all of that.

I never trust the places where i join the wood, and less this place where i am not allowed to stay while they do it. So far i think they did a good job, but, i like to see how they do it and stuff. Usually, when they run the piece of wood in the surfacer, if it's a long piece, they leave it hanging, and the surfacer will eat more at the end of it. The rest is usually ok.

I would love to get a surfacer or a jointer, but i don't have a job yet. And best thing: i would not know where to buy one, and probably they will tell me i have to order it from Germany or England or any other country.

Regarding wood glue, I know i could do this with good wood glue. BUT i don't know what brand it could be.

Allan: I did see yellow glue where i bought my timber. But they sold a gallon bottle...I just need a 1/4 gallon. The rest would probably go bad. But i'll try if i can go there again and see if it's F9 or if they have any recommendations.

BTW i am thinking again, of using one piece maple thru body necks...

Edited April 29, 2013 by eddiewarlock

[demonx]

Someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but titebond is probably just another F9 type glue.

I know it's a bit different smell and consistency as the F9 my local joinery supplies sells, but they tell me titebond is basically the same. I've never had a problem with their F9

[eddiewarlock]

as far as i know, wood glues are aliphatic resin or polivinyl, i can't remember which, but white and yellow glue are essentially the same, except the yellow one has added color.

I don't know if it's true, but Martin Koch, being from Austria, back then when he wrote his book mentioned that yellow glue was hard to find in Europe and that good quality white wood glue does the trick just fine. Now, i agree with him, as it was the same in Venezuela, i used good quality white wood glue.

[SwedishLuthier]

If i use titebond, i have to order it from overseas as well...

Well you have titebond here:

http://www.madinter.com/tools-glues/glues-finishes/titebond-original-glue.html

I dunno about prices, but they have Titebond and are in Spain.

I use epoxy for everything in the neck, neck laminates, head scarfs and fretboards as I don't want water getting into those pieces. For everything else I use either titebond or liquid hide glue.

[eddiewarlock]

Yup, Madinter has it. Not too expensive i reckon. Peter, what epoxy do you use? Do you use what you find in Sweden? or you order T 88 as well from overseas?

[FireFly]

I try to use special purpose things for their intended use. Wood glue for wood, superglue for frets, epoxy for non repairables (grain filling, body points, etc.)

I dont use hide glue that much though... except for violins... like usually i'll build the whole thing with a dremel, wood glue, and poly stains but when i want to go through the authentic experience, i'll use chisels, planes, hide glue, shellac (its whats available... i dont have nitro), and wood dye.

[eddiewarlock]

Yeah seems like i'll go back to wood glue...

[eddiewarlock]

I try to use special purpose things for their intended use. Wood glue for wood, superglue for frets, epoxy for non repairables (grain filling, body points, etc.)

I dont use hide glue that much though... except for violins... like usually i'll build the whole thing with a dremel, wood glue, and poly stains but when i want to go through the authentic experience, i'll use chisels, planes, hide glue, shellac (its whats available... i dont have nitro), and wood dye.

I do too. But epoxy doesn't swell, like it's happened to me on some guitars that despite having a perfect glue line.

I like to superglue frets and polyurethane for finishing.

Nitro, only if it's a classic shape

[SwedishLuthier]

Yup, Madinter has it. Not too expensive i reckon. Peter, what epoxy do you use? Do you use what you find in Sweden? or you order T 88 as well from overseas?

Sorry for late answer but I've been away for a few days...

I use what I can find locally. The Araldite brand have worked for me as have the Bostic brand. They are both all purpose products that can be bought everywere here in Sweden. I switched to using epoxy for my necks some 3-4 years ago and they have all worked perfectly fine without any problems.

[eddiewarlock]

Thanks a lot Peter

[Juntunen Guitars]

I use titebond and hide glue for everything. Never liquid hide glue though, it's not nearly as good as hot hide glue in my mind (you just have to be fast and know where you want clamps) I used epoxy once to hold in threaded inserts on one of the acoustics I'm building right now and hated using it in every aspect. What I've always been told is titebond 1 is the general all around wood glue, 2 (blue bottle) is more of a water proof glue as it doesn't let water move around as much, if you use it for braces on an acoustic (as with epoxy) you will see where they are from the top because it won't let the wood move like it should so basically you have to keep the guitar perfectly humidified or it will implode on itself because it couldn't move as much (think cracks) titebond 3 (green) I've only used to make a canoe paddle with because it's supposed to be totally waterproof and made for marine applications or something (that's what I was told, I don't use it on guitars)

I use hot hide glue for acoustic neck joints because it will eventually need a neck reset and titebond can be a hassle to undo for that and epoxy is pretty much impossible. I also use it for bridges because those will need to be reglued eventually too. I use titebond for bridges if it's closer than the hot hide though ... just because I'm lazy

I've never had any issues with wood glues and I've never had a fingerboard cup on me like what was mentioned above. How are you guys clamping fingerboards that they will cup? I run clamps down both sides on the edges and run a strip of 3/4" plywood the whole length as well and I've had no problems. If you just clamp in the middle it's not getting enough clamping pressure to the sides no matter what glue you use (in my opinion at least)

I'm going to experiment this summer with making glue from pine pitch. I have a big gallon bag of black and white spruce pitch that I was planning on making a varnish from but I think I'm going to use it to make a type of glue and see how strong it is compared to titebond and hide glue.

Since finishes were mentioned. I prefer nitro, it's easy and melts into itself. Poly, 2K, UV, water based, they are thicker (minus water based) are annoying to sand because of witness lines and in my opinion take longer because of the sanding process. I've started using tru oil now and have liked that pretty good.

[westhemann]

According to the article Rad posted here

http://projectguitar.ibforums.com/topic/46261-project-s9-continued/page-26

All of that you just posted about hot hide glue vs liquid hide glue is wrong.Don't be mad,a lot of what I thought about epoxy was not 100% accurate either.I am always willing to change my beliefs to suit the facts though,so I have gone back to titebond for everything except freboards.

You have never seen water cup wood?Never?I find that tough to believe...and that IS the part of titebond that cups wood.Fretboards are just thin enough to really cause an issue.The fact that you start talking about your army of clamps just shows that you are in fact aware of the problem...It happens to everyone.

Epoxy has no water,so wood does not move around it like Titebond...so you don't have to be so worried about getting a clamp on every inch of the edge.

[RestorationAD]

I had a bass body blank cup because of too much titebond just the other week. What a mess.

I was also surprised about liquid hide glue vs hot hide glue.

I would not bother with Titebond 2 or 3 for guitars we have covered that before.

[Mattia]

I use Titebond (local woodworking place or add it to a Madinter order, or mail order from Axminster in the UK) for most stuff ('swelling' visible joints are down to poor clamping or poor wood prep technique. A good titebond joint is invisible as long as you prepare the surfaces. And you really should prep them yourself and glue within 30 minutes of prepping), particularly laminates that I can let 'rest' and reacclimate. I ocassionally use epoxy for laminating, and always use it for fingerboards. My brand of choice is West Systems, who are certain to have a distributor around you somewhere. Used a lot in boat building.

[eddiewarlock]

i already ordered titebond... i am still in doubt whether to leave the neck as one piece or laminate it...

[eddiewarlock]

BTW does anyone know the dimensions of a Jackson Rhoads and a ESP Horizon? I printed a couple of plans but i feel they came out too small...